[Bloat] Looking for a citation...

[Bloat] Looking for a citation...

[Rich Brown]

In various posts, I have baldly asserted that "above 300-500mbps ISP links, all the bufferbloat moves into the Wi-Fi." 

I am pretty sure that I someone on these lists stated that as fact.

Could I get a link to a discussion that is definitive? Or a statement that is actually true that I can incorporate into my future posts? Many thanks.

Re: [Bloat] Looking for a citation...

[Jan Ceuleers]

On 18/08/2024 11:08, Rich Brown via Bloat wrote:
> In various posts, I have baldly asserted that "above 300-500mbps ISP links, all the bufferbloat moves into the Wi-Fi." 
>
> I am pretty sure that I someone on these lists stated that as fact.
>
> Could I get a link to a discussion that is definitive? Or a statement that is actually true that I can incorporate into my future posts? Many thanks.

Quite evidently there are WiFi access points and clients available whose
speeds exceed 500 Mbit/s, so in order to be able to make such a claim
one would need to know the extent to which those newer WiFi technologies
are not yet deployed.

Re: [Bloat] Looking for a citation...

[Dave Taht]

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Actually I feel that at speeds greater than *50*Mbits, most of the bloat
moves to the wifi, but perhaps I should qualify it more, Modern wifi can do
almost 2gbits a few feet from the AP, but still has a dynamic range of
5Mbit to 2gbit. Interference, contention, range, all factor into when you
hit a FIFO "cliff", and stay there.

I wish I knew how many commercial APs outside of eero, cisco meraki,
gfiber, and starlink have adopted fq_codel. Certainly I am pleased as punch
at openwrt's adoption. And seeing at least a few fiber folk shipping better
wifi.

Moreso, if only more vendors did a RvRvlatency test like:
http://flent-newark.bufferbloat.net/~d/Airtime%20based%20queue%20limit%20for%20FQ_CoDel%20in%20wireless%20interface.pdf

A hugely mitigating factor is people self adapting to move closer to the AP
(or mesh), another is most traffic never cracks 20 mbit for very long.

I am sad that every coffee shop I frequent save one, has horrible
bufferbloat, but it  usually only shows up when you try to do s
videoconference.



On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 8:32 AM Jan Ceuleers via Bloat <
bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> On 18/08/2024 11:08, Rich Brown via Bloat wrote:
> > In various posts, I have baldly asserted that "above 300-500mbps ISP
> links, all the bufferbloat moves into the Wi-Fi."
> >
> > I am pretty sure that I someone on these lists stated that as fact.
> >
> > Could I get a link to a discussion that is definitive? Or a statement
> that is actually true that I can incorporate into my future posts? Many
> thanks.
>
> Quite evidently there are WiFi access points and clients available whose
> speeds exceed 500 Mbit/s, so in order to be able to make such a claim
> one would need to know the extent to which those newer WiFi technologies
> are not yet deployed.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>


-- 
Artists/Musician Campout Aug 9-11
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/healing-arts-event-tickets-928910826287
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

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Re: [Bloat] Looking for a citation...

[David Lang]

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Also, the highest wifi speeds are only achievable with build traffic to a single 
client (or with mu-mimo to a small number of clients), it's not that with n 
clients, each gets anywhere close to 1/n bandwith. And if you add a single 
slower device to the network, it will eat much more airtime than it's bandwidth 
would indicate.

David Lang

On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Dave Taht via Bloat wrote:

> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 08:47:02 -0700
> From: Dave Taht via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Reply-To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> To: Jan Ceuleers <jan.ceuleers@gmail.com>
> Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> Subject: Re: [Bloat] Looking for a citation...
> 
> Actually I feel that at speeds greater than *50*Mbits, most of the bloat
> moves to the wifi, but perhaps I should qualify it more, Modern wifi can do
> almost 2gbits a few feet from the AP, but still has a dynamic range of
> 5Mbit to 2gbit. Interference, contention, range, all factor into when you
> hit a FIFO "cliff", and stay there.
>
> I wish I knew how many commercial APs outside of eero, cisco meraki,
> gfiber, and starlink have adopted fq_codel. Certainly I am pleased as punch
> at openwrt's adoption. And seeing at least a few fiber folk shipping better
> wifi.
>
> Moreso, if only more vendors did a RvRvlatency test like:
> http://flent-newark.bufferbloat.net/~d/Airtime%20based%20queue%20limit%20for%20FQ_CoDel%20in%20wireless%20interface.pdf
>
> A hugely mitigating factor is people self adapting to move closer to the AP
> (or mesh), another is most traffic never cracks 20 mbit for very long.
>
> I am sad that every coffee shop I frequent save one, has horrible
> bufferbloat, but it  usually only shows up when you try to do s
> videoconference.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 8:32 AM Jan Ceuleers via Bloat <
> bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> On 18/08/2024 11:08, Rich Brown via Bloat wrote:
>>> In various posts, I have baldly asserted that "above 300-500mbps ISP
>> links, all the bufferbloat moves into the Wi-Fi."
>>>
>>> I am pretty sure that I someone on these lists stated that as fact.
>>>
>>> Could I get a link to a discussion that is definitive? Or a statement
>> that is actually true that I can incorporate into my future posts? Many
>> thanks.
>>
>> Quite evidently there are WiFi access points and clients available whose
>> speeds exceed 500 Mbit/s, so in order to be able to make such a claim
>> one would need to know the extent to which those newer WiFi technologies
>> are not yet deployed.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>
>
>
>

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_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Bloat] Looking for a citation...

[Dave Taht]

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One of the things I like about sitting on top of the libreqos deployment is
being able to see the side effects of different ISP bandwidth tiers, and we
can now correlate rtt, drops and tcp retransmits somewhat. At 25/10 cake
manages most of the bandwidth (beautifully). At 100/20 we see very little
ISP drops but do see rtt skyrocket sometimes which is a sure sign to the
ISP to suggest a wifi upgrade of some sort to the customer.

On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 9:01 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:

> Also, the highest wifi speeds are only achievable with build traffic to a
> single
> client (or with mu-mimo to a small number of clients), it's not that with
> n
> clients, each gets anywhere close to 1/n bandwith. And if you add a single
> slower device to the network, it will eat much more airtime than it's
> bandwidth
> would indicate.
>
> David Lang
>
> On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Dave Taht via Bloat wrote:
>
> > Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 08:47:02 -0700
> > From: Dave Taht via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> > Reply-To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> > To: Jan Ceuleers <jan.ceuleers@gmail.com>
> > Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > Subject: Re: [Bloat] Looking for a citation...
> >
> > Actually I feel that at speeds greater than *50*Mbits, most of the bloat
> > moves to the wifi, but perhaps I should qualify it more, Modern wifi can
> do
> > almost 2gbits a few feet from the AP, but still has a dynamic range of
> > 5Mbit to 2gbit. Interference, contention, range, all factor into when you
> > hit a FIFO "cliff", and stay there.
> >
> > I wish I knew how many commercial APs outside of eero, cisco meraki,
> > gfiber, and starlink have adopted fq_codel. Certainly I am pleased as
> punch
> > at openwrt's adoption. And seeing at least a few fiber folk shipping
> better
> > wifi.
> >
> > Moreso, if only more vendors did a RvRvlatency test like:
> >
> http://flent-newark.bufferbloat.net/~d/Airtime%20based%20queue%20limit%20for%20FQ_CoDel%20in%20wireless%20interface.pdf
> >
> > A hugely mitigating factor is people self adapting to move closer to the
> AP
> > (or mesh), another is most traffic never cracks 20 mbit for very long.
> >
> > I am sad that every coffee shop I frequent save one, has horrible
> > bufferbloat, but it  usually only shows up when you try to do s
> > videoconference.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 8:32 AM Jan Ceuleers via Bloat <
> > bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 18/08/2024 11:08, Rich Brown via Bloat wrote:
> >>> In various posts, I have baldly asserted that "above 300-500mbps ISP
> >> links, all the bufferbloat moves into the Wi-Fi."
> >>>
> >>> I am pretty sure that I someone on these lists stated that as fact.
> >>>
> >>> Could I get a link to a discussion that is definitive? Or a statement
> >> that is actually true that I can incorporate into my future posts? Many
> >> thanks.
> >>
> >> Quite evidently there are WiFi access points and clients available whose
> >> speeds exceed 500 Mbit/s, so in order to be able to make such a claim
> >> one would need to know the extent to which those newer WiFi technologies
> >> are not yet deployed.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Bloat mailing list
> >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> >>
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>


-- 
Artists/Musician Campout Aug 9-11
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/healing-arts-event-tickets-928910826287
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

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Re: [Bloat] Looking for a citation...

[dan]

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This high speed increased issues thing has been something we’ve talked with
customers about many times in both wisp and msp businesses.  Some cheap
802.11n router can be fantastic when you have a 10M service but becomes the
primary issue at 50M+.

On the isp side it’s how we explain and justify the need for premium wifi
for high speed plans, even requiring our router be installed even if they
want to use their own.  Literally filtering dhcp for only our routers.

On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 6:12 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:

> One of the things I like about sitting on top of the libreqos deployment
> is being able to see the side effects of different ISP bandwidth tiers, and
> we can now correlate rtt, drops and tcp retransmits somewhat. At 25/10 cake
> manages most of the bandwidth (beautifully). At 100/20 we see very little
> ISP drops but do see rtt skyrocket sometimes which is a sure sign to the
> ISP to suggest a wifi upgrade of some sort to the customer.
>
> On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 9:01 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>
>> Also, the highest wifi speeds are only achievable with build traffic to a
>> single
>> client (or with mu-mimo to a small number of clients), it's not that with
>> n
>> clients, each gets anywhere close to 1/n bandwith. And if you add a
>> single
>> slower device to the network, it will eat much more airtime than it's
>> bandwidth
>> would indicate.
>>
>> David Lang
>>
>> On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Dave Taht via Bloat wrote:
>>
>> > Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 08:47:02 -0700
>> > From: Dave Taht via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> > Reply-To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
>> > To: Jan Ceuleers <jan.ceuleers@gmail.com>
>> > Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > Subject: Re: [Bloat] Looking for a citation...
>> >
>> > Actually I feel that at speeds greater than *50*Mbits, most of the bloat
>> > moves to the wifi, but perhaps I should qualify it more, Modern wifi
>> can do
>> > almost 2gbits a few feet from the AP, but still has a dynamic range of
>> > 5Mbit to 2gbit. Interference, contention, range, all factor into when
>> you
>> > hit a FIFO "cliff", and stay there.
>> >
>> > I wish I knew how many commercial APs outside of eero, cisco meraki,
>> > gfiber, and starlink have adopted fq_codel. Certainly I am pleased as
>> punch
>> > at openwrt's adoption. And seeing at least a few fiber folk shipping
>> better
>> > wifi.
>> >
>> > Moreso, if only more vendors did a RvRvlatency test like:
>> >
>> http://flent-newark.bufferbloat.net/~d/Airtime%20based%20queue%20limit%20for%20FQ_CoDel%20in%20wireless%20interface.pdf
>> >
>> > A hugely mitigating factor is people self adapting to move closer to
>> the AP
>> > (or mesh), another is most traffic never cracks 20 mbit for very long.
>> >
>> > I am sad that every coffee shop I frequent save one, has horrible
>> > bufferbloat, but it  usually only shows up when you try to do s
>> > videoconference.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 8:32 AM Jan Ceuleers via Bloat <
>> > bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 18/08/2024 11:08, Rich Brown via Bloat wrote:
>> >>> In various posts, I have baldly asserted that "above 300-500mbps ISP
>> >> links, all the bufferbloat moves into the Wi-Fi."
>> >>>
>> >>> I am pretty sure that I someone on these lists stated that as fact.
>> >>>
>> >>> Could I get a link to a discussion that is definitive? Or a statement
>> >> that is actually true that I can incorporate into my future posts? Many
>> >> thanks.
>> >>
>> >> Quite evidently there are WiFi access points and clients available
>> whose
>> >> speeds exceed 500 Mbit/s, so in order to be able to make such a claim
>> >> one would need to know the extent to which those newer WiFi
>> technologies
>> >> are not yet deployed.
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Bloat mailing list
>> >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>
>
>>
>
> --
> Artists/Musician Campout Aug 9-11
> https://www.eventbrite.com/e/healing-arts-event-tickets-928910826287
> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>

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Re: [Bloat] [Make-wifi-fast] Looking for a citation...

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi Rich,


> On 18. Aug 2024, at 11:08, Rich Brown via Make-wifi-fast <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> In various posts, I have baldly asserted that "above 300-500mbps ISP links, all the bufferbloat moves into the Wi-Fi." 
> 
> I am pretty sure that I someone on these lists stated that as fact.

[SM] This is somewhat hard to assess, as most WiFi gear likely lives in home networks (and is not replaced routinely*) and does not give any upstream feedback about which MCS and number of streams are typically achievable. Operators of  managed WIFi networks should know, but I guess for those this is pretty intimate information that they might not want to share with the competitors.

But a rule of thumb is that achievable throughput for WiFi is closer to 50% of the MCS table rate (see https://mcsindex.com/), I would guess that the bulk of existing stations will have >= 3 antennas and will be pre-802.11.ax, but that still leaves guessing the channel width... but if we assume 80 MHz channels (anecdotally based on looking around in my WiFi surround) the highest likely MCS rate would be 1170, which gets us to the upper end of you estimate once we account for the 50% utilisation factor... But given the amount of assumptions we had to make, I am not sure that offers the certainty you are after...

*) I expect wildly different update schedules for routers/APs, notebooks, and mobile devices. Smartphones might on the forefront with some folks replacing them every 24 months, and laptops/APs on much slower schedules.... so even if WiFi6/7 gear starts hitting some customer premises, I expect a looooong tail of WiFi4/5 devices


> Could I get a link to a discussion that is definitive? Or a statement that is actually true that I can incorporate into my future posts? Many thanks.
> _______________________________________________
> Make-wifi-fast mailing list
> Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast

Re: [Bloat] [Make-wifi-fast] Looking for a citation...

[David Lang]

On Sun, 18 Aug 2024, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:

> *) I expect wildly different update schedules for routers/APs, notebooks, and 
> mobile devices. Smartphones might on the forefront with some folks replacing 
> them every 24 months, and laptops/APs on much slower schedules.... so even if 
> WiFi6/7 gear starts hitting some customer premises, I expect a looooong tail 
> of WiFi4/5 devices

IoT devices, video doorbells, set top boxes, etc probably have much slower 
upgrade cycles and usually have much older chipsets even on their chip date. 
Some of them don't use a lot of data, but because they are using older encoding 
they use a lot more airtime than you expect.

David Lang

Re: [Bloat] Looking for a citation...

[Livingood, Jason]

See https://arxiv.org/abs/2311.05499 and the refs at the end as well for prior studies.


Measuring the Prevalence of WiFi Bottlenecks in Home Access Networks

Ranya Sharma, Marc Richardson, Guilherme Martins, Nick Feamster

As broadband Internet speeds continue to increase, the home wireless ("WiFi") network may more frequently become a performance bottleneck. Past research, now nearly a decade old, initially documented this phenomenon through indirect inference techniques, noting the prevalence of WiFi bottlenecks but never directly measuring them. In the intervening years, access network (and WiFi) speeds have increased, warranting a re-appraisal of this important question, particularly with renewed private and federal investment in access network infrastructure. This paper studies this question, developing a new system and measurement technique to perform direct measurements of WiFi and access network performance, ultimately collecting and analyzing a first-of-its-kind dataset of more than 13,000 joint measurements of WiFi and access network throughputs, in a real-world deployment spanning more than 50 homes, for nearly two years. Using this dataset, we re-examine the question of whether, when, and to what extent a user's home wireless network may be a performance bottleneck, particularly relative to their access connection. We do so by directly and continuously measuring the user's Internet performance along two separate components of the Internet path -- from a wireless client inside the home network to the wired point of access (e.g., the cable modem), and from the wired point of access to the user's ISP. Confirming and revising results from more than a decade ago, we find that a user's home wireless network is often the throughput bottleneck. In particular, for users with access links that exceed 800~Mbps, the user's home wireless network was the performance bottleneck 100% of the time.

On 8/18/24, 05:08, "Bloat on behalf of Rich Brown via Bloat" <bloat-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:bloat-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:


In various posts, I have baldly asserted that "above 300-500mbps ISP links, all the bufferbloat moves into the Wi-Fi." 


I am pretty sure that I someone on these lists stated that as fact.


Could I get a link to a discussion that is definitive? Or a statement that is actually true that I can incorporate into my future posts? Many thanks.
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!Hx6KOEdA33LoKQOuNmwKNbenbWB3x_uE0dpwptAGKVkIPym66koG6UHe8M0F4nLSAou42YEvAlZm9ctVKh8AMdt0daaYlQ$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!Hx6KOEdA33LoKQOuNmwKNbenbWB3x_uE0dpwptAGKVkIPym66koG6UHe8M0F4nLSAou42YEvAlZm9ctVKh8AMdt0daaYlQ$> 

Re: [Bloat] [Make-wifi-fast] Looking for a citation...

[Bob McMahon]

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> for users with access links that exceed 800~Mbps, the user's home
wireless network was the performance bottleneck 100% of the time.

hmm, I'm concerned about a study that has a 100% number.

I have a home Wi-Fi infrastructure and a >1G xfinity plan. I don't have a
Wi-Fi bottleneck because I use a 2.5G wired fronhaul with a 4 port
proteclli vault pro connected to 4 Wi-Fi 6e APs that are located properly
per spacetime.  I didn't need to consult with anybody nor get others
agreements to do this. As a homeowner, I did it all by myself. Wi-Fi has
never been the problem since doing this despite the 100% claim.

I treat communications like an essential service. I don't run all my
electrical devices from one single extension cord. Probably time for
homeowners to think about updating their comm infra and treat it as if it's
a critical service because it is.

Bob



On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 6:29 AM Livingood, Jason via Make-wifi-fast <
make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> See https://arxiv.org/abs/2311.05499 and the refs at the end as well for
> prior studies.
>
>
> Measuring the Prevalence of WiFi Bottlenecks in Home Access Networks
>
> Ranya Sharma, Marc Richardson, Guilherme Martins, Nick Feamster
>
> As broadband Internet speeds continue to increase, the home wireless
> ("WiFi") network may more frequently become a performance bottleneck. Past
> research, now nearly a decade old, initially documented this phenomenon
> through indirect inference techniques, noting the prevalence of WiFi
> bottlenecks but never directly measuring them. In the intervening years,
> access network (and WiFi) speeds have increased, warranting a re-appraisal
> of this important question, particularly with renewed private and federal
> investment in access network infrastructure. This paper studies this
> question, developing a new system and measurement technique to perform
> direct measurements of WiFi and access network performance, ultimately
> collecting and analyzing a first-of-its-kind dataset of more than 13,000
> joint measurements of WiFi and access network throughputs, in a real-world
> deployment spanning more than 50 homes, for nearly two years. Using this
> dataset, we re-examine the question of whether, when, and to what extent a
> user's home wireless network may be a performance bottleneck, particularly
> relative to their access connection. We do so by directly and continuously
> measuring the user's Internet performance along two separate components of
> the Internet path -- from a wireless client inside the home network to the
> wired point of access (e.g., the cable modem), and from the wired point of
> access to the user's ISP. Confirming and revising results from more than a
> decade ago, we find that a user's home wireless network is often the
> throughput bottleneck. In particular, for users with access links that
> exceed 800~Mbps, the user's home wireless network was the performance
> bottleneck 100% of the time.
>
> On 8/18/24, 05:08, "Bloat on behalf of Rich Brown via Bloat" <
> bloat-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:
> bloat-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of
> bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
>
>
> In various posts, I have baldly asserted that "above 300-500mbps ISP
> links, all the bufferbloat moves into the Wi-Fi."
>
>
> I am pretty sure that I someone on these lists stated that as fact.
>
>
> Could I get a link to a discussion that is definitive? Or a statement that
> is actually true that I can incorporate into my future posts? Many thanks.
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!Hx6KOEdA33LoKQOuNmwKNbenbWB3x_uE0dpwptAGKVkIPym66koG6UHe8M0F4nLSAou42YEvAlZm9ctVKh8AMdt0daaYlQ$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!Hx6KOEdA33LoKQOuNmwKNbenbWB3x_uE0dpwptAGKVkIPym66koG6UHe8M0F4nLSAou42YEvAlZm9ctVKh8AMdt0daaYlQ$>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Make-wifi-fast mailing list
> Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast

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