From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 541C03BA8E; Sat, 16 Mar 2019 06:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.42.220] ([77.185.151.67]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LwXCt-1gy40k3clT-018JRA; Sat, 16 Mar 2019 11:08:33 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Sebastian Moeller X-Priority: 3 (Normal) In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 11:08:32 +0100 Cc: "David P. Reed" , ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net, bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <03792A7A-3B9E-4F9C-9DEA-A8346FBB06BA@gmx.de> References: <1E80578D-A589-4CA0-9015-B03B63042355@gmx.de> <27FA673A-2C4C-4652-943F-33FAA1CF1E83@gmx.de> <1552669283.555112988@apps.rackspace.com> <7412ADED-D1F3-4C15-9703-0977E087013B@gmail.com> <1552693506.047323810@apps.rackspace.com> To: Michael Welzl X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:IvKryVP338+tXadeBxWd2sl8gBkBviHfrOGJBBrM8EKDH1VGzH8 ECv5q6rgS11my2LOIzjv4wnIpucBl+aA9y0cedHeouBDFfNd7G2aP2+PNIldc42JIXSy7Ly +sLn9gEndTz0D0UomiBf2VW0gp0VytYKbQbSorfaYkVQTAOJ2QxhQ9jDqmJOfWuuHKOhqeq bmgQLcLbdXAbGnSM54e9w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:CnS168cETTg=:ioexlep1iG9ywtiLqG19CZ BDVRNG5Mlm3+5jrLRZkXB9CosSh6LmDRqwCd/VW6CafetMPaiL04pwpBIpduwNjdDd8hg8tSc 7qfJYOG8tXUWmGT9sS43bZEaB7bCb/+S7slAEK6a+I/C+84mtL38JEsYh7LUgJuGKRbignLml PFuGblWpYq0Wg26uY8J0RCHZ5neHIhkE4P8bBIrRhY5Ep/dvfgl4UkwV0fO9OERoVVbtImO5O Av3Lo3z6bcugnx0RnyOv6cD5MfFQr2Pt+obuMCQzW3Fra74Td0WrIE1LPeMNdtoN6BK2WJuAa o7Rp6DOU3zM+DXbppea39cbZELd3gm4DewM4YWyPFCjZTuwbyJPHDUHTlJkOvIPuDAaJva6h3 as7bjA2CRw9xmLD46d4m8hY/BhMtCizThGTr+scBXkYLr3XrNKXj79jMF1iNQ3Ddph+nkRr+C 1MNE4PUHQh/9lLR3sQwqrka0LW1I7ZFlKU80hHygL8kMmcibKZMQms8Bky6ugm9bvgIH/qyAZ Do3Hq9G8tpokPvHjoVqt6gi7DX108HBrnzJIerhCcGVZmi40d1Qz8sVgTRdAAdxKiMUisugJa rzi1DoHdmOKVMDLIUhngnhawGDzALSuI763VLijsIvP/Ykc1AhiVm13xIrqkleDtvQLJsGS7l 9RTfa2xNYxM9qgIrQVLZRjgVhIh53bEyEa6Ndac+hiKKK9fOQD4eNdrSR4xaiNy3NZhYKY+cZ TLfajtowIvfU8133FRDa1q3VdmSyJwhGVLVu4s3Dd4+E7q01A0VqJh0HRn40dvByIbPsrw0ZA +qZPEFvlKcuQT+Gi/KaqVNCdGcPY3DmZNCX2Jc9k8fqD9q8lmI6ctaAXRvXwsqH2BUx4d6hEW Rspd/0CRocWrT1ZPPDonZtHFm/mhcsHKn5iJT6KfLBgffQCUJ4NMeJZar+MZNKKdCxLVPo07a gHAXuliA7Yg== Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104 X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 10:08:37 -0000 > On Mar 16, 2019, at 10:42, Michael Welzl wrote: >=20 > Good question! =E2=80=A6. on Windows in particular, I=E2=80=99d = really like to know this too. Well, as far as I can tell it is the group policy editor that is = the tool to assign DSCPs to applications, IMHO that is exactly the right = place, somewhere where the administrator/enduser can set her desired = policy (personally I am fine with applications also using sensible = defaults, as long as the user can override them all is well). The catch = seems to be that group policies require a domain controller and are = hence not available on stand-alond windows home installations. Anybody = with deep contacts to microsoft here, that could try to get an = sub-official standpoint from MS on the issue of opening the group policy = editor up for everybody (at least the dscp marking part)? Best Regards Sebastian >=20 > The WebRTC Javascript API allows one to influence the DSCP, i.e. = browsers normally can do that. Whether that=E2=80=99s true for all OSes, = I don=E2=80=99t know. >=20 > Cheers, > Michael >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Mar 16, 2019, at 12:45 AM, David P. Reed = wrote: >>=20 >> How many applications used by normal users have "admin" privileges? = The Browser? Email? FTP? >> =20 >> =20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Dave Taht" >> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 4:31pm >> To: "Jonathan Foulkes" >> Cc: ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net, "bloat" = >> Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] [Bloat] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] = Implementation and experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104 >>=20 >> On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 1:28 PM Jonathan Foulkes = wrote: >> > >> > All this discussion of DSCP marking brings to mind what happened on = the Windows platform, where the OS had to suppress ALL DSCP marks, as = app authors were trying to game the system. >> > And even if not trying to =E2=80=98game=E2=80=99 it, they have = non-obvious reasons why they don=E2=80=99t mark traffic how one would = expect. Example: >> > >> > I know an engineer who works at a cloud-storage solution company, = and I asked why a long-standing customer request for DSCP marking (as = bulk) was not implemented. His answer was they=E2=80=99d never do that, = as that would impact benchmarks against their competitors for which = service syncs faster. >> > >> > Which brings me to a question: Is anyone aware of an easy to use = Windows app that will allow the user to select an application and tell = the OS to mark the traffic (all or by port) with a user selected DSCP = level? >> > There are many guides on using regedit and other error-prone (and = geek-only) means of doing this, but is there a simple Windows 10 home = app? >>=20 >> When I last tried it (years ago), in order to set the tos bits, an >> application merely had to have admin privs. >>=20 >> > Now that Cake is out there with simple DiffServ3 support, it would = be nice to lower the priority of cloud-storage services and other bulk = traffic by correctly marking it at the origin. >> > >> > Cheers, >> > >> > Jonathan Foulkes >> > >> > >> > > On Mar 15, 2019, at 3:32 PM, Jonathan Morton = wrote: >> > > >> > >> On 15 Mar, 2019, at 8:36 pm, Mikael Abrahamsson = wrote: >> > >> >> > >> Having a "lower-than-best-effort" diffserve codepoint might = work, because it means worse treatment, not preferential treatment. >> > >> >> > >> The problem with having DSCP CPs that indicate preferential = treatment is typically a ddos magnet. >> > > >> > > This is true, and also why I feel that just 2 bits should be = sufficient for Diffserv (rather than 6). They are sufficient to express = four different optimisation targets: >> > > >> > > 0: Maximum Throughput (aka Best Effort) >> > > 1: Minimum Cost (aka Least Effort) >> > > 2: Minimum Latency (aka Maximum Responsiveness) >> > > 3: Minimum Loss (aka Maximum Reliability) >> > > >> > > It is legitimate for traffic to request any of these four = optimisations, with the explicit tradeoff of *not* necessarily getting = optimisation in the other three dimensions. >> > > >> > > The old TOS spec erred in specifying 4 non-exclusive bits to = express this, in addition to 3 bits for a telegram-office style = "priority level" (which was very much ripe for abuse if not strictly = admission-controlled). TOS was rightly considered a mess, but was = replaced with Diffserv which was far too loose a spec to be useful in = practice. >> > > >> > > But that's a separate topic from ECN per se. >> > > >> > > - Jonathan Morton >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Bloat mailing list >> > > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Bloat mailing list >> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >>=20 >> Dave T=C3=A4ht >> CTO, TekLibre, LLC >> http://www.teklibre.com >> Tel: 1-831-205-9740 >> _______________________________________________ >> Ecn-sane mailing list >> Ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/ecn-sane >> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat