General list for discussing Bufferbloat
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Cc: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>, Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
	libreqos <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
	Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
	bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: [Bloat] On metrics
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 14:00:35 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <0649f7dc2b6e7ca1634b675dc6f9d953@rjmcmahon.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <2885829.1679221616@dyas>

Hi All,

It seems getting the metrics right is critical. Our industry can't be 
reporting things that mislead or misassign blame. The medical community 
doesn't treat people for cancer without having a high degree they've 
gotten the diagnostics correct as an example.

An initial metric, per this group, would be geared towards 
responsiveness or the speed of causality. Here, we may need to include 
linear distance, the power required to achieve a responsiveness and to 
take account of Pareto efficiencies, where one device's better 
responsiveness can't make another's worse.

An example per a possible FiWi new & comprehensive metric: A rating 
could be something like 10K responses per second at 1Km terrestrial 
(fiber) cable / 6m radius free space range / 5W total / 0-impact to 
others. If consumers can learn to read nutrition labels they can also 
learn to read these.

Maybe a device produces a scan code qr based upon its e3e measurement 
and the scan code qr loads a page with human interpretable analysis? 
Similar to how we now pull up menus on our mobile phones listing the 
food items and the nutrition information that's available to seat at a 
table. Then, in a perfect world, there is a rating per each link hop or 
better, network jurisdiction. Each jurisdiction could decide if they 
want to participate or not, similar to connecting up an autonomous 
system or not. I think measurements of network jurisdictions without 
prior agreements are unfair. The lack of measurement capability is 
likely enough pressure needed to motivate actions.

Bob

PS. As a side note, and a shameless plug, iperf 2 now supports 
bounceback and a big issue has been clock sync for one way delays (OWD.) 
Per a comment from Jean Tourrhiles 
https://sourceforge.net/p/iperf2/tickets/242/ I added some unsync 
detections in the bounceback measurements. Contact me directly if your 
engineering team needs more information on iperf 2.

  reply	other threads:[~2023-03-19 21:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 170+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <mailman.2651.1672779463.1281.starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
     [not found] ` <1672786712.106922180@apps.rackspace.com>
     [not found]   ` <F4CA66DA-516C-438A-8D8A-5F172E5DFA75@cable.comcast.com>
2023-01-09 15:26     ` [Bloat] [Starlink] Researchers Seeking Probe Volunteers in USA Dave Taht
2023-01-09 17:00       ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-09 17:04       ` [Bloat] [LibreQoS] " Jeremy Austin
2023-01-09 18:33         ` Dave Taht
2023-01-09 18:54       ` [Bloat] [EXTERNAL] " Livingood, Jason
2023-01-09 19:19         ` [Bloat] [Rpm] " rjmcmahon
2023-01-09 19:56           ` [Bloat] [LibreQoS] " dan
2023-01-09 21:00             ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-13 10:02             ` [Bloat] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] " Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 15:08               ` [Bloat] [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] [EXTERNAL] " Jeremy Austin
2023-03-13 15:50                 ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 16:06                   ` Dave Taht
2023-03-13 16:19                     ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 16:12                   ` dan
2023-03-13 16:36                     ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 17:26                       ` dan
2023-03-13 17:37                         ` Jeremy Austin
2023-03-13 18:34                           ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 18:14                         ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 18:42                           ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-13 18:51                             ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 19:32                               ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-13 20:00                                 ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 20:28                                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-14  4:27                                     ` [Bloat] On FiWi rjmcmahon
2023-03-14 11:10                                       ` [Bloat] [Starlink] " Mike Puchol
2023-03-14 16:54                                         ` [Bloat] [Rpm] " Robert McMahon
2023-03-14 17:06                                           ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-14 17:11                                             ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-14 17:35                                               ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-14 17:54                                                 ` [Bloat] [LibreQoS] " dan
2023-03-14 18:14                                                   ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-14 19:18                                                     ` dan
2023-03-14 19:30                                                       ` Dave Taht
2023-03-14 20:06                                                         ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-14 19:30                                                       ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-14 23:30                                                         ` [Bloat] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Rpm] " Bruce Perens
2023-03-15  0:11                                                           ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-15  5:20                                                             ` Bruce Perens
2023-03-15 16:17                                                               ` [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] " Aaron Wood
2023-03-15 17:05                                                                 ` Bruce Perens
2023-03-15 17:44                                                                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-15 19:22                                                                   ` David Lang
2023-03-15 17:32                                                               ` [Bloat] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Rpm] " rjmcmahon
2023-03-15 17:42                                                                 ` dan
2023-03-15 19:33                                                                   ` David Lang
2023-03-15 19:39                                                                     ` [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] " Dave Taht
2023-03-15 21:52                                                                       ` David Lang
2023-03-15 22:04                                                                         ` Dave Taht
2023-03-15 22:08                                                                           ` dan
2023-03-15 17:43                                                                 ` [Bloat] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Rpm] " Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-15 17:49                                                                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-15 17:53                                                                     ` [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] " Dave Taht
2023-03-15 17:59                                                                       ` dan
2023-03-15 19:39                                                                       ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-17 16:38                                         ` [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] " Dave Taht
2023-03-17 18:21                                           ` Mike Puchol
2023-03-17 19:01                                           ` [Bloat] [Starlink] [Rpm] " Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-17 19:19                                             ` [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] " rjmcmahon
2023-03-17 20:37                                               ` [Bloat] [Starlink] [Rpm] " Bruce Perens
2023-03-17 20:57                                                 ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-17 22:50                                                   ` Bruce Perens
2023-03-18 18:18                                                     ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-18 19:57                                                       ` [Bloat] [LibreQoS] " dan
2023-03-18 20:40                                                         ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-19 10:26                                                           ` [Bloat] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] " Michael Richardson
2023-03-19 21:00                                                             ` rjmcmahon [this message]
2023-03-20  0:26                                                               ` [Bloat] On metrics dan
2023-03-20  3:03                                                                 ` [Bloat] [Starlink] " David Lang
2023-03-20 20:46                                                             ` [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi Frantisek Borsik
2023-03-20 21:28                                                               ` dan
2023-03-20 21:38                                                                 ` Frantisek Borsik
2023-03-20 22:02                                                                   ` [Bloat] On FiWi power envelope rjmcmahon
2023-03-20 23:47                                                                     ` [Bloat] [Starlink] " Bruce Perens
2023-03-21  0:10                                                                 ` [Bloat] [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] On FiWi Brandon Butterworth
2023-03-21  5:21                                                                   ` Frantisek Borsik
2023-03-21 11:26                                                                     ` [Bloat] Annoyed at 5/1 Mbps Rich Brown
2023-03-21 12:31                                                                       ` [Bloat] [Starlink] " Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-21 12:53                                                                         ` Rich Brown
2023-03-21 15:22                                                                         ` Jan Ceuleers
2023-03-21 18:33                                                                           ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-21 17:22                                                                         ` dan
2023-03-21 19:04                                                                           ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-23 18:23                                                                             ` dan
2023-03-21 12:29                                                                     ` [Bloat] [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] On FiWi Brandon Butterworth
2023-03-21 12:30                                                                   ` [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] " Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-21 17:42                                                                     ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-21 18:08                                                                       ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-21 18:51                                                                         ` Frantisek Borsik
2023-03-21 19:58                                                                           ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-21 20:06                                                                             ` David Lang
2023-03-25 19:39                                                                             ` [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat rjmcmahon
2023-03-25 20:09                                                                               ` [Bloat] [Starlink] " Bruce Perens
2023-03-25 20:47                                                                                 ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-25 20:15                                                                               ` [Bloat] " Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-25 20:43                                                                                 ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-25 21:08                                                                                   ` [Bloat] [Starlink] " Bruce Perens
2023-03-25 22:04                                                                                     ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-25 22:50                                                                                       ` dan
2023-03-25 23:21                                                                                         ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-25 23:35                                                                                           ` David Lang
2023-03-26  0:04                                                                                             ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-26  0:07                                                                                               ` Nathan Owens
2023-03-26  0:50                                                                                                 ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-26  8:45                                                                                                 ` Livingood, Jason
2023-03-26 18:54                                                                                                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-26  0:28                                                                                               ` David Lang
2023-03-26  0:57                                                                                                 ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-25 22:57                                                                                       ` Bruce Perens
2023-03-25 23:33                                                                                         ` David Lang
2023-03-25 23:38                                                                                         ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-25 23:20                                                                                       ` David Lang
2023-03-26 18:29                                                                                         ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-26 10:34                                                                                   ` [Bloat] " Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-26 18:12                                                                                     ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-26 20:57                                                                                     ` David Lang
2023-03-26 21:11                                                                                       ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-26 21:26                                                                                         ` David Lang
2023-03-28 17:06                                                                                         ` [Bloat] [Starlink] " Larry Press
2023-03-28 17:47                                                                                           ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-28 18:11                                                                                             ` Frantisek Borsik
2023-03-28 18:46                                                                                               ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-28 20:37                                                                                                 ` David Lang
2023-03-28 21:31                                                                                                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-28 22:18                                                                                                     ` dan
2023-03-28 22:42                                                                                                       ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-29  8:28                                                                                             ` Sebastian Moeller
     [not found]                                                                                               ` <a2857ec4-a6ea-e9eb-cf99-17ef7ea08ef2@indexexchange.com>
     [not found]                                                                                                 ` <716ECAAD-E2EE-4647-9E73-D60BF8BF9C1E@searls.com>
2023-03-29 13:40                                                                                                   ` [Bloat] Enabling a production model Dave Taht
2023-03-29 14:54                                                                                                     ` [Bloat] [LibreQoS] " dan
2023-03-29 16:53                                                                                                       ` Jeremy Austin
2023-03-29 18:33                                                                                                         ` [Bloat] [Starlink] " Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-29 17:13                                                                                                       ` [Bloat] " David Lang
2023-03-29 17:34                                                                                                         ` dan
2023-03-29 20:03                                                                                                           ` David Lang
2023-03-29 17:46                                                                                                         ` [Bloat] [Starlink] " Rich Brown
2023-03-29 19:02                                                                                                           ` tom
2023-03-29 19:08                                                                                                             ` Dave Taht
2023-03-29 19:31                                                                                                               ` tom
2023-03-29 19:11                                                                                                           ` Dave Collier-Brown
2023-03-29 13:46                                                                                               ` [Bloat] [Starlink] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat Frantisek Borsik
2023-03-29 14:57                                                                                                 ` [Bloat] [LibreQoS] " Dave Taht
2023-03-29 19:23                                                                                                   ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-29 19:02                                                                                               ` [Bloat] " rjmcmahon
2023-03-29 19:37                                                                                                 ` dan
2023-03-25 20:27                                                                               ` [Bloat] " rjmcmahon
2023-03-17 23:15                                             ` [Bloat] [Starlink] [Rpm] On FiWi David Lang
2023-03-13 19:33                           ` [Bloat] [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] [EXTERNAL] Re: Researchers Seeking Probe Volunteers in USA dan
2023-03-13 19:52                             ` Jeremy Austin
2023-03-13 21:00                               ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 21:27                                 ` dan
2023-03-14  9:11                                   ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 20:45                             ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 21:02                               ` [Bloat] When do you drop? Always! Dave Taht
2023-03-13 16:04                 ` [Bloat] UnderBloat on fiber and wisps Dave Taht
2023-03-13 16:09                   ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 18:22                     ` [Bloat] Offtopic: passive ping. was: Researchers Seeking Probe Volunteers in USA Dave Collier-Brown
2023-03-13 18:50                       ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 19:48                         ` Dave Collier-Brown
2023-01-09 20:49         ` [Bloat] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Starlink] " Dave Taht
2023-01-09 19:13       ` [Bloat] [Rpm] " rjmcmahon
2023-01-09 19:47         ` [Bloat] [Starlink] [Rpm] " Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-09 20:20         ` [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] " Dave Taht
2023-01-09 20:46           ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-09 20:59             ` Dave Taht
2023-01-09 21:06               ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-09 21:18                 ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-09 21:02             ` [Bloat] [Starlink] [Rpm] " Dick Roy
2023-01-10 17:36         ` [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] " David P. Reed
     [not found] <mailman.276.1679281383.1222.bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
2023-03-20 11:30 ` [Bloat] On metrics Rich Brown
2023-03-20 11:56   ` Sebastian Moeller

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

  List information: https://lists.bufferbloat.net/postorius/lists/bloat.lists.bufferbloat.net/

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=0649f7dc2b6e7ca1634b675dc6f9d953@rjmcmahon.com \
    --to=rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com \
    --cc=bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net \
    --cc=dandenson@gmail.com \
    --cc=libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net \
    --cc=mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca \
    --cc=rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net \
    --cc=starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox