[Bloat] fcc request for standardized speed testing

[Bloat] fcc request for standardized speed testing

[Dave Taht]

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-407816A1.pdf

-- 
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

Re: [Bloat] fcc request for standardized speed testing

[David Lang]

so, what happens when a standardized test is mandated and then it's found that 
that test isn't as good as others?

I'm leery of any government mandates.

David Lang

On Wed, 18 Dec 2024, Dave Taht via Bloat wrote:

> https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-407816A1.pdf

Re: [Bloat] fcc request for standardized speed testing

[David Collier-Brown]

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On 12/18/24 17:17, David Lang via Bloat wrote:
> so, what happens when a standardized test is mandated and then it's 
> found that that test isn't as good as others?
>
> I'm leery of any government mandates.

Governments in general are good a "policing" things*, such as 
deficiencies in specifications and persons trying to weasel around them.

At the same time, good specifiers write in "or better" clauses so that 
subsequent standards can be a few lines added to the original work.

We can tell that is broken in Canada when the CRTC does a request for 
comments ... but then rejects all the comments and proposed amendments. 
Oh, and resists publishing them (:-))

Have you seen that in the US?

--dave

[* See Jane Jacobs, /Systems of Survival: A Dialogue on the Moral 
Foundations of Commerce and Politics/, Random House, Inc., ISBN 
0-394-55079-X, 1992]  or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_of_Survival


>
> David Lang
>
> On Wed, 18 Dec 2024, Dave Taht via Bloat wrote:
>
>> https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-407816A1.pdf
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

-- 
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
davecb@spamcop.net           |              -- Mark Twain

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Re: [Bloat] fcc request for standardized speed testing

[Stephen Hemminger]

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 11:31:08 -0500
David Collier-Brown via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> On 12/18/24 17:17, David Lang via Bloat wrote:
> > so, what happens when a standardized test is mandated and then it's 
> > found that that test isn't as good as others?
> >
> > I'm leery of any government mandates.  
> 
> Governments in general are good a "policing" things*, such as 
> deficiencies in specifications and persons trying to weasel around them.
> 
> At the same time, good specifiers write in "or better" clauses so that 
> subsequent standards can be a few lines added to the original work.
> 
> We can tell that is broken in Canada when the CRTC does a request for 
> comments ... but then rejects all the comments and proposed amendments. 
> Oh, and resists publishing them (:-))
> 
> Have you seen that in the US?
> 
> --dave

And it will just create benchmark cheating...
Look at any of the standardized database benchmarks as an example.
The benchmark starts out trying to an express a workload; then the vendors
discover new and creative ways to get higher numbers.

Re: [Bloat] fcc request for standardized speed testing

[David Collier-Brown]

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On 12/19/24 11:42, Stephen Hemminger via Bloat wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 11:31:08 -0500
> David Collier-Brown via Bloat<bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> On 12/18/24 17:17, David Lang via Bloat wrote:
>>> so, what happens when a standardized test is mandated and then it's
>>> found that that test isn't as good as others?
>>>
>>> I'm leery of any government mandates.
>> Governments in general are good a "policing" things*, such as
>> deficiencies in specifications and persons trying to weasel around them.
>>
>> At the same time, good specifiers write in "or better" clauses so that
>> subsequent standards can be a few lines added to the original work.
>>
>> We can tell that is broken in Canada when the CRTC does a request for
>> comments ... but then rejects all the comments and proposed amendments.
>> Oh, and resists publishing them (:-))
>>
>> Have you seen that in the US?
>>
>> --dave
> And it will just create benchmark cheating...
> Look at any of the standardized database benchmarks as an example.
> The benchmark starts out trying to an express a workload; then the vendors
> discover new and creative ways to get higher numbers.
> _______________________________________________

Hmmn, and that's for non-mandated performance standards!

I'll speculate here that we have a "whack-a-mole" situation. No matter 
how many holes you fix, you can't make a benchmark fair.

The interesting question is if you can make a "not less than" rule 
system monotonically reduce the attack surface, instead of leaving it 
the same size or worse (:-))

I know we do that with case law (I'm a former Quicklaw nerd) but it can 
be /arbitrarily/ hard...

--dave

-- 
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
davecb@spamcop.net           |              -- Mark Twain

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Re: [Bloat] fcc request for standardized speed testing

[Michael Richardson]

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David Lang via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
    > so, what happens when a standardized test is mandated and then it's found
    > that that test isn't as good as others?

better to have standardized metrics then?

    > I'm leery of any government mandates.

    > David Lang

    > On Wed, 18 Dec 2024, Dave Taht via Bloat wrote:

    >> https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-407816A1.pdf
    > _______________________________________________
    > Bloat mailing list
    > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
    > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

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Re: [Bloat] fcc request for standardized speed testing

[Kenneth Porter]

Rather than have ISPs do the testing, we just need a way for customers 
to share their own measurements. The FCC can provide a platform where 
they can be shared from different test sites.

I just got Sonic 10 Gbps and the installer told me I'm the second person 
he's seen use Waveform's bufferbloat speed test. Alas, it hung up on me 
in the "warming up" phase so I fell back to Ookla's test. After he left, 
I got Waveform's test to work by clearing cookies. (I got a good 900/900 
value with an "A" bufferbloat rating without cake enabled. I don't yet 
have any 10G gear.) I initially thought uBlock Origin was interfering 
with the client scripts so I disabled it but it didn't fix it. Some 
googling later gave me the tip to clear cookies. Platform was Firefox on 
Win10 x64.

Re: [Bloat] fcc request for standardized speed testing

[David Collier-Brown]

That's far too sane (:-))

The provided platform could be the "other end" of FLENT.

--dave

On 12/19/24 19:19, Kenneth Porter via Bloat wrote:
> Rather than have ISPs do the testing, we just need a way for customers 
> to share their own measurements. The FCC can provide a platform where 
> they can be shared from different test sites.
>
> I just got Sonic 10 Gbps and the installer told me I'm the second 
> person he's seen use Waveform's bufferbloat speed test. Alas, it hung 
> up on me in the "warming up" phase so I fell back to Ookla's test. 
> After he left, I got Waveform's test to work by clearing cookies. (I 
> got a good 900/900 value with an "A" bufferbloat rating without cake 
> enabled. I don't yet have any 10G gear.) I initially thought uBlock 
> Origin was interfering with the client scripts so I disabled it but it 
> didn't fix it. Some googling later gave me the tip to clear cookies. 
> Platform was Firefox on Win10 x64.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

-- 
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
davecb@spamcop.net           |              -- Mark Twain