From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from st-node04.ct.uk (st-node04.ct.uk [109.69.232.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF6C53B29E for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by st-node04.ct.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB372ED77F8; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 18:55:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: by SpamTitan at ct.uk Received: from st-node04.ct.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by st-node04.ct.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC2B72ED78FF; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 18:55:10 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: st-node04.ct.uk; none Received: from relay.smtp.pnsol.com (ec2-54-246-165-192.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com [54.246.165.192]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA256 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: predictable) by st-node04.ct.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BBC792ED78FE; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 18:55:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.la.pnsol.com ([172.20.5.206]) by relay.smtp.pnsol.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1lTqzV-0001dG-5j; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 19:03:57 +0000 Received: from [172.20.101.45] by mail.la.pnsol.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1lTqn1-0001Is-8N; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 19:51:03 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C4B92388-B029-4C05-A2C4-74EE5D6185EE"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.7\)) From: Neil Davies In-Reply-To: <9A233C8C-5C48-4483-A087-AA5FE1011388@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 19:54:56 +0100 Cc: bloat X-Mailbutler-Message-Id: 20EBB8E3-00D2-4705-A0CD-1F8A15E0F803 Message-Id: <0B1C2FA4-4D2E-4FFB-9C78-58AC5D77E4C2@pnsol.com> References: <9A233C8C-5C48-4483-A087-AA5FE1011388@gmail.com> To: Rich Brown X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.7) Subject: Re: [Bloat] Questions for Bufferbloat Wikipedia article X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 18:55:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C4B92388-B029-4C05-A2C4-74EE5D6185EE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 It should be noted that a) and b) are related by the =E2=80=9Cservice = rate=E2=80=9D - if you want to look at how to measure =E2=80=9Cunhappiness= =E2=80=9D in networking you might want to look at the Broadband = Forum=E2=80=99s work on =E2=80=9CQuality Attenuation=E2=80=9D discussed = in TR452.1[1] where there is a formal definition and calculus for it=E2=80= =A6 Neil [1]https://www.broadband-forum.org/download/TR-452.1.pdf > On 5 Apr 2021, at 13:46, Rich Brown wrote: >=20 > Dave T=C3=A4ht has put me up to revising the current Bufferbloat = article on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bufferbloat) >=20 > Before I get into it, I want to ask real experts for some guidance... = Here goes: >=20 > 1) What is *our* definition of Bufferbloat? (We invented the term, so = I think we get to define it.) >=20 > a) Are we content with the definition from the bufferbloat.net site, = "Bufferbloat is the undesirable latency that comes from a router or = other network equipment buffering too much data." (This suggests = bufferbloat is latency, and could be measured in seconds/msec.) >=20 > b) Or should we use something like Jim Gettys' definition from the = Dark Buffers article (https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5755608), = "Bufferbloat is the existence of excessively large (bloated) buffers in = systems, particularly network communication systems." (This suggests = bufferbloat is an unfortunate state of nature, measured in units of = "unhappiness" :-) >=20 > c) Or some other definition? >=20 > 2) All network equipment can be bloated. I have seen (but not really = followed) controversy regarding the amount of buffering needed in the = Data Center. Is it worth having the Wikipedia article distinguish = between Data Center equipment and CPE/home/last mile equipment? = Similarly, is the "bloat condition" and its mitigation qualitatively = different between those applications? Finally, do any of us know how = frequently data centers/backbone ISPs experience buffer-induced = latencies? What's the magnitude of the impact? >=20 > 3) The Wikipedia article mentions guidance that network gear should = accommodate buffering 250 msec of traffic(!) Is this a real "rule of = thumb" or just an often-repeated but unscientific suggestion? Can = someone give pointers to best practices? >=20 > 4) Meta question: Can anyone offer any advice on making a wholesale = change to a Wikipedia article? Before I offer a fork-lift replacement I = would a) solicit advice on the new text from this list, and b) try to = make contact with some of the reviewers and editors who've been = maintaining the page to establish some bona fides and rapport... >=20 > Many thanks! >=20 > Rich > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat --Apple-Mail=_C4B92388-B029-4C05-A2C4-74EE5D6185EE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEzmChmYLHZj0CWbh3+akwcLL+52oFAmBsroAACgkQ+akwcLL+ 52rJshAAiDsadGguoCw0tr6tiGeTi6WnvwHxJaDqgQxfpfYEuAtDnCxUxWIe/KVH MR6biWGb4YDJ7SY2J6TF/xFxEUMoygXEVp7ucD2JWsLMR1stboxB50Y7Sbul6nZt NQTuUqieCjYhbmqem1bBsruSD3vQ8yTUF5B0GolI9Q74C9+uq0Ss/UTRizsSEPXL n7EPljEw3AAwxoiTukLot23Fn6SAvxgzmbh2VztmoUK2A1qMtJ6Kw95zMZF2DWmo 9irmfUD9ugUip4y4509Xd6cXdqgnMyGkFnAwT43CGK3JWfbjS2MtlAeVQC1WnqIz LFncBziDqw2tIhgDnHlGaFi6mRIb7LZzU2LGrSM12deB+rs3miTVASQtH+TVJ9XZ u23Mm7EYNXSu6AnWTq9LEKE0hYjrDIYPBPkNf5RfwKGoOHLSxAePk1rAKKBWAXhg bXDGM+LaSDoQdl/1MlQP55zNtDr0TpiQxKSWJcaT7xUdDBFRn+yP7RHhEAZ/rWaZ vlX8ub7ZZi4nMS5joNQn2+vIx4y4oq7MjEx2p6dN5tEIjdz4zzVWP6bExKvNLKPD cnedZNjcrZECgllsYHlWfJZvVjZE2FcnTs3hm9+f3WzJUiivslule78WjYXbljYT 2p930Q8uQjT6Drb86RbkOixBWsLUIrdsgbf2l4Q/HuupYb50ays= =L0lX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_C4B92388-B029-4C05-A2C4-74EE5D6185EE--