From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7DAC3B29E for ; Sun, 22 May 2022 13:42:12 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1653241329; bh=laXhyCd30US15ZxZuue0KnKKq/MsqSh7igsSmCEpiMc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=RzKoUdDpFfrgswE4IWzB9ibYVBR5nQ77EMoWvjFy50rLoZZ7XNSD+x89snsszmSen CbyIk0kLpnB0eR3iUwL4lnVP1tlf24qJ6QhAtxIdSayxSVYanoKX7wp4rVYHUdrvSs jB0tqfA8Z2WI8n/oETsZJzPa6mzVzQ/PLacXtO7w= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from smtpclient.apple ([77.10.171.118]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MSc1L-1oHCzh40Qz-00SvLw; Sun, 22 May 2022 19:42:09 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <29091.1653235848@localhost> Date: Sun, 22 May 2022 19:42:07 +0200 Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0C2D95E6-5761-4517-8220-5AAA5E1465B1@gmx.de> References: <29091.1653235848@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:64k0IyvxzWijZVjK+59VGhv0+QiDAlXEpfpGGADKSU8i+GcNxu4 IwN0aVZ5Stax3BEdXF9/IUrxdhwE7tvCMtxVAluQpTfAkPsXll9CEby0ymFqp2ojsdMm+m1 UJFdB3B31q0QpBP2v4uOseCWUsni/pqnH9cqQBcaIqAoz2VBsrBiTCqGV7O+dHSiKkJYp4E XvCn2g//xOXPM9qRrBZIQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:lwx9OG2PxVQ=:OvXFc2HOWzZvcVRslRdPGP DsGxQgJvS9xnjXC6wWvQ52E8lYUG/1pGsixe4PASNLL+G4cbWEchiEcm0cfxzwv302d2g3ZNz LQap5cb2zyDEJwCsss1lyFeHRb3GNHUSTbY75svXMXNTVIXmDsqfN7AuUk9iJFsmoVmHrar2d YBZACLp33uqJZ1K2hU8uhTFQVn55iR9RfBlN7fJw2LDWAgqAHpZh0PmRui3VbWXUy9KZA/APo em/bvaG2Y7h2gnYRJ7GADSJ2a3aKi2z6V3iqaB0xvQq4u6hBd095MqSfpsHUE4g90VuS75cyK lZtiGPK7D0YKz31Atyr1TKoVNGBkwSBxR4uL3yu8f625x9/AZoMfegVQwgFxtBPoGbxsZ0RaI IU/U76ZaRTNR31CAz0cNT7tvJMiX5RTe5rCOtX0tyZosnUX4b9nxPtulhH2GJQBbrN1/LZ1cT GmpFgLKtzTSmqZCsdKnH1KBXXXCYn8FahQ9/dUYLTVfdolYTQRgO/orxnMb0L+b7nkG7ZDoWg STzLeDPkT4FNXxN8ItzYoM3CDCaQUf4t+CKggVYGG857o0n4Y5ok3YkCqQk67vDHHu+ne9BCp eJAX7i0WBNM7hHCKGziQQVayBHf0Lsa6JQ+PoatN0p9tl0o2BPn/jLqBr2mgrxmvDnBJkWAkX I4/pBJ9MXqV1X1jfzMHByBPJRUsW7YytAwaktBf/YZV4BDPK43igjMyCIOakvF4NvUIvR05dt XzYqPAUCSlJhogVYNP5a+mokFgVnF+m87NiiXSMgOl8KxX82LmqSImXpX8dIjuvRmb6U19Ld8 RLWyeROcVXsfLDfBnvcBudMraXPYfuIgqW6B3JQeyv1/eqbY5QtWOx5ffZvPCwz+uKOi3S3RX 6ZbN4uxMoXaUbPM7IvS5+rBnDnlir0DSp6+GB/9HEQuh1Bu6+L3ZiOKXQ5vMlkYr20effCHsx Pss0OirkGlDo/qoLAIWWoVo3bb2fZSHrAd9BlKHvddCJq+clRE2TMZY5QZY5REEiUYavzMe3o RBbXndTwzRf3YbyWdQytB23LAZzbhTJ4olrtlZYM1dHeLQ5f71slruIBTjQyVbIl9TPpwgsaq zXrDgcX8R9TPPfnQlNzFC0Fo73Ov9hsZ4TMrLFtYA0XyvMkihQLReGyng== Subject: Re: [Bloat] Germany mentions latency X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 May 2022 17:42:13 -0000 HI Michael, > On May 22, 2022, at 18:10, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 >=20 > = https://www.thelocal.de/20220504/explained-how-germany-is-trying-to-tackle= -its-slow-internet-problem/ >=20 > Near the end of the article: > "In addition to the minimum download and upload speeds, the = government > says the latency (reaction time) should also be no more than 150 > milliseconds." >=20 > It would be nice if they used the (Apple) RPM metric instead, as more = people > would be be able to immediately measure that from a phone/laptop. This is IMHO a slightly different kettle of fish, alas. This is = the legal reference of what is/will be considered to be the minimum = internet grade people in Germany are entitled to (for some measure of = entitled). As is all measurements are against the nationally certified = measurement infrastructure (breitbandmessung.de) operated for the = national regulatory agency (Bundesnetzagentur: short BNetzA) by zafaco. = I am willing to bet the 150ms are a direct result from old ITU = acceptable mouth to ear one-way delay data. I agree that it would be helpful to convince the BNetzA to = switch their latency measurement from idle latency to latency under load = (especially since the ITU numbers really only make sense if interpreted = as latency-under-load/working-conditions). Personally I think an IETF = RFC (currently in the making thanks to great folks at apple and other = places) will have more sway than (just) pointing to apple's Macos/iOS = internal/proprietary networkQuality tool. > I wonder if some Apple PR person might be willing to respond to this = effort > in a complementary way and suggest this. > (And I'm not an apple user) That could help, if someone from apple would talk to BNetzA* = pointing at the IETF effort and explain why they implemented the = networkQuality tool; not sure though how such a contact would happen = (full disclosure I know exactly 0 person inside the BNetzA or politics = that would need to be convinced). Regards Sebastian *) I had a discussion about reporting MTU per direction which span = multiple years between me trying to explain why this is worthwhile (and = apparently failing), and them implementing something, albeit half-arsed: = for their servers they report the servers configured MTU and not the = path MTU in download direction... I tried to also explain why latency = under load would be immensely intersting, but so far crickets.... >=20 > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh = networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT = architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on = rails [ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat