From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com (mail-qt1-x82a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2C663CB37 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 07:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id r5so12562186qtp.4 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 04:30:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1679311835; h=message-id:in-reply-to:to:references:date:subject:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=aGctRz/GeBBFqZ10dnSkXvGxnmI+Yxe2tfXkqIx9EK8=; b=AVuca3latjrjRjMPImUtJNGwS9Tm9149PJO2U89KJxOT2UfHDaXtOqxU34ACuNjmAU 6bdmaBEOW93uQwz2QQgE0SR8ZvGYbm5iEXHqseHp3hAmBNtxzeCYnIDydFJ9MA2KtieY Ht5bM6VNzUgOq3UAk/owSyVrNoNPoc0SxJhBbrNqbW2gTj9GyHDTpNHAtGQ1Ng0htfjT epzDfNG0fZJoW8ZvTIOMrpYHGSJITjQzk995jk1aAHQe5jGZPzryEShvJ2Fp3c0UdSjp AGb0p2gkU2/dIdiPkjkW+4IvHumD5lZvpQd9X9RphFEsUo78DfFE5lHyxizyTINiRMke l66A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1679311835; h=message-id:in-reply-to:to:references:date:subject:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=aGctRz/GeBBFqZ10dnSkXvGxnmI+Yxe2tfXkqIx9EK8=; b=HiAfwbjqub9RYVpV7ebHIp1OqiGVEkNfZIhyteTryG0Gcup8/zlhPImPY4+KRpOgCs wTXqdLgAG4Y/j+su8KpKbyCSBw3CIFND2JGD0KGUFXpxc7DO32LO/85egZbiSrNOjUTD tDYwWV2lFMovnSoVbGXypa9QEU6NIrQu8PlXN9eV6nRHKzROEeooa6ox/UvLli3VG7hT K+wxihN+MRXPKbEwL1AXSgKb9LMItjljnOWKdeXfvFmnO9g3LX1tYKDra5CRAzcY4YYH LrQ7iJCru0FDq/O4RdYBQtgaIAyavXP42ytIMzj00iTtJs2CmOTC2DZDvr0BSqm8ry4l dwVg== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXEmw6L+mKASeAr4/aoj6uNmDRUUMpOtRI4YcjxC+dRFqT1Doiv TJmkNvXQltXxKr/uzwQ/XwgCqN66o+I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8FLRZIi4L0FuB9FGajT0T8cdg9L7cZzoG40U/LkKMV2jaDcnS9RcK81N4QgPTvqeI1biwXHQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:590:b0:3bf:c5ce:127a with SMTP id c16-20020a05622a059000b003bfc5ce127amr28368327qtb.4.1679311834949; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 04:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([198.55.239.10]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w11-20020ac843cb000000b003d8f78b82besm6208075qtn.70.2023.03.20.04.30.34 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 20 Mar 2023 04:30:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Rich Brown Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.2\)) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 07:30:33 -0400 References: To: bloat In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <0DC6B63C-41BF-4741-AAB2-904B5087B6F0@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.2) Subject: Re: [Bloat] On metrics X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 11:30:35 -0000 > On Mar 19, 2023, at 11:03 PM, bloat-request@lists.bufferbloat.net = wrote: >=20 >> Consumers really need things like published performance specs so they = can >> assemble their needs like an a la carte menu. What do you do, = what=E2=80=99s >> important to you, what details support that need, and they need that = in a >> simple way. Like a little app that says =E2=80=9Chow many 1080p TVs = or 4K TVs, >> how many gaming consoles, do you take zoom calls or VoIP/phone calls. = Do >> you send large emails, videos, or pictures.=E2=80=9D >=20 > The problem is that these needs really are not that heavy. Among my = ISP=20 > connections, I have a 8/1 dsl connection, even when I fail over to = that, I can=20 > run my 4k tv + a couple other HD TVs + email (although it's at the = ragged edge,=20 > trying to play 4k at 2x speed can hiccup, and zoom calls can stutter = when large=20 > emails/downloads flow) I want to second David Lang's comment. I live in a small rural NH town = that was stuck at DSL prior to a local company raising the money to = install fiber to all premises.=20 Before the fiber came in, I had 7mbps/768kbps service. If I wanted to = bond two circuits, I could get 15/1mbps. But many neighbors had = 3mbps/768kbps - or worse - so they were basically unserved. We = frequently saw people parked outside our public library after hours to = get internet. (And yes, a good router improved things. I told a lot of = people about the IQrouter that turned the unusable service into merely = slow.) But there is a huge swath of rural US that is in the same situation, = with zero or one provider of dreadful service. What's the value of a "nutrition label"? a) It's meaningless for those rural customers. They have no choice = beyond "take it or leave it."=20 b) For the lucky ones where alternative providers compete, the proposed = label does provide a standardized format that lays out purported speeds = and the the pricing tiers (including overage charges). I don't think I'd = ever believe the latency numbers. c) Coming back to metrics: we can't look to a federally-agreed-to = Nutrition Label to give guidance for which provider offers the right = choice for your mix of gadgets. The most important advice I can imagine = is "get a router that manages your latency", and your problems will go = away, or at least be *much* better. Rich=