From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CAF63B29E for ; Sat, 28 Mar 2020 10:30:56 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1585405854; bh=YkM+TC84TXC1L9++QEf9/CFzWPvv37KV0xPBpijAWII=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=hlQYPpgyFNj9dQM+uC8Yj1L7deFKhp55LNR/XVsVc8DRqicU6eWpHqgWZ6wHJgvvU f6h19cvATS/iCkIs2Lzx0HqKmYS4doCXcVNlBexEogRHuoqp9199k+g5u/balWzhdr 5eHFardxiZ/bdVnpEJ1ivW0eYCQ0ZMgN717C/WoM= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from hms-beagle2.lan ([77.6.224.170]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mzyyk-1jTnJY2vbC-00x1kq; Sat, 28 Mar 2020 15:30:54 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 15:30:53 +0100 Cc: bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0E492E75-A6AE-46A6-A92D-F6BDD6511AF4@gmx.de> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:ENiBbMs1b/OC2u/9msTFSSYy8yJh+JFXPEw0dJNPy1LA9nuGn2W zW3noG9FtsTHe2R9fMh+edo2yKCJiZ38qK0kzTmgQNNs/ehTATUmzerWkB6/6y745sTTIPj pspYjqm1u+M5kDEfIfsrJ5+yPcHpJ5jRGAFpRjSmSuc2uxgtf6Pje/9a7UUG+6hZLEGCvos SzGWpYKikrMgg+hV6Tyow== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:kTgaeZJbCm8=:M2K9IuzFz1tvPvePGycYCY NyM+yjgu+VpdMeAFJUdVTq7D1nKoDlfIuIitKBIOJORiTt8CZr85cJVXotixETJivKcAeLn+g fLVFLygs2c1N+SOHJXscWOhhkbE18DsAKxbNTDPjpTpVwmLr2cTIURCgpFmSuffrGQG4Re0vl iVSmRVM2ih1fHtlSAOO5o+vn0YhjLemNT6mRqpamsAbdr/8pa2CX8vBCGR/Bp8J+e5jPLxR4x qXdFpn2Pk/5OhcQb+x9r44coDZ9EeM2ieT8eH1jNiWnoScaRRLEEWng0xS7o41vW03u0Q8/NW If0mYPOBzE7ph/Lny1Uur87J6C+fDuNdz42NYqcQBoFPRPTNQZzmSwIZox7ce0O8hzPEMAI8a Hjtp5XtMTomSl3ScXqwMRplHcDG+glTMoaMODUKAbhDdVhr4NrFHz9D/aByWKMkGm+RzIfJOQ YKzvXyXSDDCi2stWnR9n9DLU0Uw0spQtTYQQIrCg5VaEcH4sa5MjxoNEblrELqvIVrTPGY5sl EJ4fh3ENukOIjBocgCBdIuvuvlFSF7U21AJS8j9GTrziLGd/mpUSHQX4DueXLHG0JwDVtGThs HDW95UBWsARGcn5mmVBm8QCidsU/RzQ+kNPxvL6cFbzUiTzSvYW6uJba+B7mpnNlWhO14nddJ QB94qqmyNRqyHsk5xfoMiMwnCFPZ6Dh3Y8G5SSH/nDF8Euz5TGjjPUPHtGc8W1QxQDF6iXhpD wlVdlpbqfO5zKmWvMudwCBTBqY9iV9QlmlHa+Cje9ijfi8rp6ME2NdUGbRJeQ4+3/xNUm/II3 7O9j80CL5yN7739CdE9JQzUjgnDRbonXtZ17P0+YqLBlaCZTy45PhegqeOjmOWl0sbrNHfEpL N3hs9XJdf3ob2HONvAwISnuAeL3H049RZAgORysdUNKH2/5s/e8ExEbRQ+mV15daslPj5yWXS N0LLxJL/QnTyO4mPd/JP1lUKwAjDXQzzsdkblcy7EWgwgyl45peERE9jvkuVELFd4SlroJDAK N/w9HOcD2HM2XcKDSZEwVvUZ9kTsodT9wGm0Xrblzqul+UzCNJznM1CHc1rFsl2jotJdznq7O TnOrpqaysEnZU5bddP4qdO7SEPRSEuMcDRlLffAoEP3ddjh0KLPcu4DgU2SjvlVSFXgippiJw Y1Mph7uLQi5Es5sL2x6sbJoqhhl4PwccZe6PqxHfiE1Ovi9un3Hf73ILF39g25OemoanwhxZ1 rJRB7ROf9yvtSh3bc Subject: Re: [Bloat] fcc's coronovirus guidelines X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 14:30:56 -0000 > On Mar 27, 2020, at 22:41, Dave Taht wrote: >=20 > "put everyone on a schedule"... sigh Sorry to disagree a bit, but I consider this to be conceptually = decent advice. If a problem can be avoided by a simple behavioral = change, recommending that change seems quite reasonable. Sure, the crowd = here on the bloat list, probably has sufficiently competent AQM* in = place to not having to change their behavior, but for the majority of = links/users/home networks this recommendation seems reasonable. And = certainly easier to implement by everybody that recommending to deploy = competent AQM... Also there are quite some misconceptions floating around, even = in tech-circles, about the effect of "cyclically pumped" traffic like = "adaptive" streaming on concurrent latency sensitive flows on standard = consumer-grade internet access links. Quite a number of voices in = Germany criticized the EU/BEREC as uninformed and incompetent for = "convincing" content providers to reduce streaming traffic**, based on = the believe in that adaptive streaming is side-effect free as it probes = the available bandwidth and would not cause congestion by itself.=20 Alas, on non-fq'd links adaptive streaming is not free of = side-effects, but causes cyclic latency increases on the link that = sufficiently latency sensitive traffic will expose. So far, it only were = on-line twitch-type gamers that noticed this but both remote desktop and = video conferencing applications are latency sensitive enough that the = newly delegated to home-office crowd takes note as well. Best Regards Sebastian *) I wonder how well macos devices stack-up here, given that they = default to fq_codel (at least over wifi)? **) What happened in reality, is that the EU/BEREC informed European = ISPs under which conditions they would be permitted to use traffic = engineering to reduce traffic load caused by streaming video (in short, = as long as it is to avoid network overload and applies to all video = streaming independent of source, throttling/blocking/policing is = considered fair game in the current circumstances). Most major video = streaming sources understood that correctly and voluntarily offered to = reduce their bitrates; which strikes as both crafty politics by the EU = in pro-actively laying out how ISPs could deal with actual overloads, = and economically crafty by the content side to realize that voluntary = reductions keep the control over the "how" in their court. So, well = played by both sides ;) >=20 > https://www.fcc.gov/home-network-tips-coronavirus-pandemic >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Make Music, Not War >=20 > Dave T=C3=A4ht > CTO, TekLibre, LLC > http://www.teklibre.com > Tel: 1-831-435-0729 > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat