From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from full.lackof.org (full.lackof.org [204.13.164.203]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3E623B29D for ; Sat, 22 Oct 2022 16:34:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [172.16.1.4] (97-126-23-70.tukw.qwest.net [97.126.23.70]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by full.lackof.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4MvtP965pFzyXm; Sat, 22 Oct 2022 20:34:53 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <0cacb0eb-d9cd-16e9-f415-58acda3c7746@lackof.org> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2022 13:34:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.12.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Sebastian Moeller Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <938D9D45-DADA-4291-BD8A-84E4257CEE49@apple.com> <6710sq51-1151-s739-qq87-0r5264qrs9q8@ynat.uz> From: Matt Taggart In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Make-wifi-fast] The most wonderful video ever about bufferbloat X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2022 20:34:54 -0000 On 10/22/22 12:47, Sebastian Moeller wrote: > [SM] None of the real life models are all that well fitting for the problem, information simply is different from tangible objects in that dropping and resending on failure are less problematic. But that means that all "intuitive" analogies are out and trying to explain internet congestion and remedies with telegrams or even letters does not really help all that much (and in both cases dropping was rare and considered a failure not part of normal operations as far as I can see). Hmm yes. I am trying to think of real world analogies where if a delivery is not on time it gets dropped. What about practicing tennis with a robotic ball launcher? If it launches at too fast a rate the player won't be able to hit them all. Also what about the Guitar Hero style games, where if you don't play the proper note falling down the screen, the music gets compoundingly worse. Maybe a good example for the bufferbloat worst-case thundering herd failure. I vaguely remember other games where failing to do something on time made it harder to do the next thing on time and it got worse quickly. Here's another classic I just thought of, "I Love Lucy" in the chocolate factory :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnHiAWlrYQc That might make a good example in a talk. -- Matt Taggart matt@lackof.org