From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50EE83CB35 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2019 12:38:32 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1554223108; bh=Nm2iEtOFFbWgUHCF0l+kDmZuzBFV/pojZw6+Himnp6c=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:To:CC:From; b=B+7i5rBdYrfYmbRgXGGUR7Ltz9SEhlRUKY8mN+FhHgsnD00IPEZHQttX7Yw/hID5q nQ3XbbpAuXh6c0naQph0D6XASJpX40quiOfNHpSZiU362wNVV+gWWG5rQIKjY1wrRg WGXYwDEz7lyZToQ485CO/LIZu9lsOFH70YLAEEak= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [10.18.91.19] ([80.187.115.3]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MPUlV-1hFTAT2ixd-004lAN; Tue, 02 Apr 2019 18:38:28 +0200 Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 18:38:24 +0200 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: Jonathan Foulkes , Mikael Abrahamsson CC: bloat From: Sebastian Moeller Message-ID: <1031976F-2DF9-4736-BAFA-437AD2915E9E@gmx.de> X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Bme7UfqeN5HGlEL9Hukw2wEIWa9XlnXgFpRGI2+aRuejRJ3pcon DGvJYCUzJ/HFitS1yzk1N2EFsLu8wLRFc+6A1/fU0hYRfhIWFDdqyxTCeXMdd1kQYGGsJ+o ft7xuX9zedwLGTx0bjzjA2YLJI2WKm4r7lrAnMaZx1WDv2NKHq0Y9KUVGGmR67uQvDLayuL jrmwdSbAXOjNzNcXIMFQg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:ENIB7OxvpVM=:jP9PwLkEkc28yTyZjk1ZL2 HJPqyBCrmLrfd/SHsFvxnAM26W328u7IMwlnIYIXt7LWli8SQ5PTWIG/hNEV2Fsxir50WK1YD ewybGlwv801ncUV6/f0UIRpXIyfjDUSRxrww6CeitovoPVTrf1eL53MEQ/lvPMRusq5WKPNkD 2LsYG7lgGT65FED92/YNVzkUsTd5YguznecvposANTzXMFg8uk1Bnui0EVvs+cxx6R6HwIc0D trRfRAfk1kIHHOaGyP6iQpuvZzmDmViYuaUqqYxI3ycwtI/wTDfdt0/vzAHmPaZXKBzSNbsoa V3/hIJ8XHx4fdNEPXizoFM/s42pOx3acKwvaJ56uKN1HpHG2duUsII9IJ+Vn5RjIL4uFTxmC7 8r7q6Uwr8zEdFj0UIalkU5rE7ckgzGxKzgivIycdJ5+KlCqeRrhrFyXRG8SmhkXN2SsoDLDM/ fzKIhsy8wNTJH6i0CMRYDaDSiQwdoLwkhXxEE7IWfaSWXfSUVGu2EmplH64Edxlw4SYgG6yYP h+pNMz2q77ekDijysexp1qqjItIBBRd7rYoeIUYjsHlonlEN5yPjClebQElb4sKvo15srFai/ NGpoj8uiE0+r3//u/kUhcwVK5q6RlvMUXjC78+8PVI1tTVjwGhB/cbs1OrayTskyvzkcRicEI HeeUnAMZU/6PUXqc2SCaZ5qs7wyVpxoBqV90GU7WYrnWZPOl1IVDNe6x5pvXgSRnK2+cHqkqZ gp/mnF2f+BlF73MFkOqwYVDO+hen5HpxjffrxRUEQtCvKv9GsNETGTKyFJMk5NhNV0jf3KqZU PEgOF9HW1gj7cdRBPw8bn3GxsYRKi77PbTa6QgJ0+PFGdLhr1exDX2EyzQnCvrZYxL0TfTDcp S7ayA6JKcUvS9phllWIlGa0ZdU868gHoUeNJi5llSYwPIwnrFkOYG4/Rqm7Gr/ml3NSwhcOA2 vfNAd7g4Ccw== Subject: Re: [Bloat] number of home routers with ingress AQM X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 16:38:32 -0000 Hi Jonathan, Thanks for the data=2E On April 2, 2019 4:14:34 PM GMT+02:00, Jonathan Foulkes wrote: >Responses below > >> On Apr 2, 2019, at 8:10 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson >wrote: >>=20 >> On Tue, 2 Apr 2019, Sebastian Moeller wrote: >>=20 >>> I just wondered if anybody has any reasonable estimate how many >end-users actually employ fair-queueing AQMs with active ECN-marking >for ingress traffic @home? I am trying to understand whether L4S >approach to simply declare these as insignificant in number is >justifiable? >>=20 >> If more than 0=2E01% of HGWs did this I'd be extremely surprised=2E > >My observation is that the number is very small, even devices with SQM >services, rarely see them enabled, and when they are, are set to >sub-optimal values=2E=20 >I see Sebastian doing a valiant, even heroic effort at addressing >technical users questions on forums, but even those users seem confused >at times=2E > >>=20 >>> I know in openwrt with sqm that is the default, but I have no idea >about >>=20 >> To configure ingress shaping you actually have to know the speed and >configure it=2E It's not the default=2E Also, it's useless if the transpo= rt >network queues the packets at lower rate than at what you receive it=2E >When I used my DOCSIS connection it routinely forwarded packets at >lower rates than what I bought (and had configured the ingress shaper >for)=2E > >As noted in other responses, the actual throughput needs to be measured >and then monitored to ensure the ingress shaping is aligned with >current capacity of the link=2E And not just the HGW to BNG, but just as >importantly, account for any constraints in backhaul from the BNG=2E Sure, but for the most part I have been limited either by the access link/= BNG-shaper or limited peering/transit between my ISP and specific target se= rvers, and in the second case I would hate to slow everything to a crawl ju= st because my ISP and say YouTube try to Duke out who should pay for access= , content to eyeballs or vice versa=2E=2E=2E > >>=20 >>> the number of devices that actually use sqm in the field; @Jonathan: >does evenroute have numbers you are willing to share, like total >numbers or % of iqrouters with ecn-marking ingress routing active? > >@Sebastian, 100% of IQrouters running firmware 3=2Ex (which uses Cake as >the default AQM) respect/use ECN=2E This has been shipping since >September, 2018=2E All existing v2 IQrouters (first ship January 2017) >may upgrade to 3x (user initiated, but one-click)=2E >As for split, 70% of deployed IQrouters are doing ECN today=2E=20 Excellent, thanks so most of them=2E=2E=2E=2E >As for count, well, that=E2=80=99s private=2E I had a hunch, that would be the case ;) =2E Understandable, though=2E >But the good new is we have ISP customers >rolling them out at a good clip=2E=20 >Turns out that having a sane traffic manager at the HGW on every node >of a DSLAM is very good for the DSLAM, the backhaul and the actual >users, who quit screaming at the ISP ;-) Oh, nice, I fully agree upstream AQM is a case where the goals and incenti= ves for end-users and ISPs seem well aligned=2E > >>=20 >> ISP networks typically looks like this in the ISP->HGW direction: >>=20 >> BNG->L2->L2->HGW >>=20 >> This is the same regardless if it's DSL, DOCSIS, FTTH/PON or >whatever=2E So shaping is done egress on BNG and it tries to send at >lower rate than any of the L2 devices=2E Generally there is no ingress >shaping of any kind on the HGW, it doesn't even know what speed the >subscription is=2E >>=20 >> --=20 >> Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm=2Epp=2Ese >> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/bloat --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E