From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FF953B2A2 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 12:40:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [172.16.11.213] ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MO7im-1c45DG2IK4-005VTI; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 18:40:14 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.1 \(3251\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 18:40:13 +0100 Cc: Benjamin Cronce , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <10E26517-2678-457D-B94D-F43056232001@gmx.de> References: <8d72490d-551a-c58f-991a-1750e9af8df9@gmail.com> To: Mikael Abrahamsson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3251) X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:jW5obY2TmvQL63s50ZLp2We3bpPd/gvPPamq3+cVigXfAU3bHJY KxHakkdG2mrSzDjlbBpRssyjb1n2tVkXMlPFt0gwLikTxp+vHjpNGJjQJ+f7vhs62zkk+Xv 3ntnl7fPPDvzIuQ+IXjszvc4oTpOsM1ndpAPdfaleuYiwQqOLfimqDKHE5rjLRr1mCx2yS9 P1jcgXJLU6VHnPbYRwpDA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:xN0hOTOtk+o=:LRZnH0LeFWNok2GVymhWU7 O3JSoQ3GazMzm2Ldqj3OLI+0RafnmiUPJ4z+/dAjBfAFssKQn2wLBv1Uep6Dg8kG7mHXJKUOr oSbMurb6VACL1EgwkLWQCEgCtZxYsxTQFXdAb7Fq9oJPVzfZDpB+1+kU8l1o1i9q5kXNRjuJ/ LXdWyvDmbyx8hP0zAnSjRpJnSgwlWWvVJTJ4+Ywk9KHgBWrr2kl6Ufgs1xQCbmlFeTZK+Cahy kXYUOJniF6WdvRgSknqk8UQbYWsw70xdC7YSbwU6O2RrF/sBhG7YUMh/norpDZM7Uv44Vd6qi +EWyVgQHIRlLMLaNlM98+atzTZSVzPtjVSUMxF8ONRHu/le5fN5AL5IUTM/Fwcj0EO3swqAdp dd90zG0wrnta8IK6LuKtJVxsCHksUPci7BTvjd0u3v2Sqb9i8tbg/7ko42OhrQ0f/n6/J7uK8 ibuGiJTRALYsqx+rUhKwEctSrbUhy3Lp/DBvp1q07eFBSirN/inN68SUwz8z1dWY6QN4tWPqw IS9I4j5Y2B1X4CF4OKSKpoNKJUGVTu4x9Ya56HVSGKFXUGxTiVPjF8g9M9ZL0SqPkTL4PB3Uj C1yKRnFAw2thl5dw+uQfCTXERwy7lPswEMVKEcSrzddqmfyz42YHpKd41lI47MnNqyBcuBXRm a+lbL+Jn2ctywvBPeWGCoM2nrs6LW0LmlmB5suIA6gTHu3dPoPngy2OFdZVntxr6jfwYBVpp3 8sPa5azFle1TIfTKmzBJkcANHTN99ImAbeXHfhQuKciiE3sDAhubYZbJoSJCKtMuoHUuTxuwm +Up9q3S Subject: Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017 X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 17:40:16 -0000 Well, > On Nov 23, 2016, at 18:31, Mikael Abrahamsson = wrote: >=20 > On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Benjamin Cronce wrote: >=20 >> If there is a simple affordable solution, say Open/DD-WRT distro = based bridge that all you do is configure your up/down bandwidth and it = applies Codel/fq-Codel/Cake, then all you need to do is drive up = awareness. A good channel for awareness would be getting in contact with = popular Twitch or YouTube gaming streamers. But I wouldn't put much = effort into driving up awareness until there is a device that people can = easily acquire, use, and afford. At first I was thinking of telling = people to use *-WRT supporting routers, but changing the firmware on = your router requires too much research, and many people care about = bleeding edge features. You need something that works in tangent with = whatever they are using. >=20 > If Comcast sells you 100/20 (I have no idea if this is a thing), you = set your upstream on this box to 18 meg fq_codel, and then Comcast = oversubscribes you so you only get 15 meg up part of the time, then = you're still bloated by the modem. This is not a solution. since Comcast will roll-out DOCSIS3.1 modems any time now, the inbuilt = PIE AQM will solve the variable upstream problem relatively well, but = that still does not fix the downstream. Also oversubscription/congestion = is not unique on DOCSIS systems, most ISPs have somewhere some bandwidth = link that is oversubscribed (e.g. the uplink connection of aDSLAM) and = there the problem is the same as on cable, namely we can only control = the local bottleneck.=20 >=20 > I don't think "buy $thing, install *WRT on it, configure it like this" = is above most gamers, but I'm afraid we don't even have a working = solution for someone with that kind of skillset. Well we have something that can solve a big part of the problem = =E2=80=9Cself-induuced=E2=80=9D congestion on the last mile, while not a = solution to all latency increase under load certainly a worthwhile = improvement. Or put differently this will not remedy bandwidth = competition with other subscribers, but it can solve the bandwidth = competition with other local users (behind the same CPE). Maybe we need to document better the scope of what we can and can not = =E2=80=9Cdeliver=E2=80=9D? Best Regards Sebastian >=20 > --=20 > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat