From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-01-iad.dyndns.com (mxout-084-iad.mailhop.org [216.146.32.84]) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3B162E02E9 for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2011 17:29:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from scan-02-iad.mailhop.org (scan-02-iad.local [10.150.0.207]) by mail-01-iad.dyndns.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4904D6F123 for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2011 01:29:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 () X-Mail-Handler: MailHop by DynDNS X-Originating-IP: 24.71.223.10 Received: from idcmail-mo1so.shaw.ca (idcmail-mo1so.shaw.ca [24.71.223.10]) by mail-01-iad.dyndns.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2BD06EF4C for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2011 01:29:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pd3ml1so-ssvc.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.141.140]) by pd3mo1so-svcs.prod.shaw.ca with ESMTP; 05 Feb 2011 18:29:41 -0700 X-Cloudmark-SP-Filtered: true X-Cloudmark-SP-Result: v=1.1 cv=PoCsjI4yX/9PNLpOJB7VMdKHKyM4vJcX/7ufEpQ0Uvw= c=1 sm=1 a=VTUP8yi54EUA:10 a=BLceEmwcHowA:10 a=wPDyFdB5xvgA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10 a=EvaGpPYFoCfc2jwbaD6Azw==:17 a=3dZX8JWgAAAA:8 a=b7SLfKwVAAAA:8 a=hQx-v9N9AAAA:8 a=cqvmlmxeAAAA:8 a=Zdxy_OsslYKTB-rfxwsA:9 a=4pPsXjusfMsJOYrWc-MA:7 a=HIWRJO7atjSM-9UxAz8qAtpy2igA:4 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Fw8iwiUKpeAA:10 a=bv_omhjdenQA:10 a=Z7Z0Y7nnNDsA:10 a=Ls3g0dwzjE0A:10 a=TphoKWqS9HQA:10 a=Q0oaSgm8_rJnBd10:21 a=-qkXlTVEGs1ukyuo:21 a=HpAAvcLHHh0Zw7uRqdWCyQ==:117 Received: from unknown (HELO amd.pacdat.net) ([96.48.77.169]) by pd3ml1so-dmz.prod.shaw.ca with ESMTP; 05 Feb 2011 18:29:41 -0700 Received: from localhost ([::1]) by amd.pacdat.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PltRa-0001Kk-9q; Sat, 05 Feb 2011 17:29:40 -0800 From: richard To: Dave =?ISO-8859-1?Q?T=E4ht?= In-Reply-To: <8739o2i115.fsf@cruithne.co.teklibre.org> References: <20110205132305.GA29396@thyrsus.com> <1296935338.12017.60.camel@amd.pacdat.net> <8739o2i115.fsf@cruithne.co.teklibre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 17:29:37 -0800 Message-Id: <1296955777.32487.42.camel@amd.pacdat.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.26.3 (2.26.3-1.fc11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam_score: -2.9 X-Spam_score_int: -28 X-Spam_bar: -- Cc: esr@thyrsus.com, bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Bloat] First draft of complete "Bufferbloat And You" enclosed. X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 01:29:48 -0000 Hi Dave I saw the animations but need to ask to use them as there is no CC on the site there and I have ads on my Digital-Rag site I'm sorry - not an artist :( On Sat, 2011-02-05 at 15:12 -0700, Dave T=C3=A4ht wrote: > richard writes: >=20 > > I like your vehicle analogy but I think today's network-using public ca= n > > relate better to a real-world situation in the internet so I've put > > together my own article on the problem. I'd already started the article > > last week and finally got to finish it today. > > http://digital-rag.com/article.php/Buffer-Bloat-Packet-Loss >=20 > Wondeful! That's 3 non-jg pieces in a row that "get" it, and explain > specific bits of it well.=20 >=20 > There are three excellent animations of how TCP/IP actually works here: >=20 > http://www.kehlet.cx/articles/99.html >=20 > Perhaps that would help your piece somewhat. >=20 > I keep hoping that someone graphically talented will show up that can do > animations similar to those above, that clearly illustrate > bufferbloat. Anyone? Anyone know anyone? >=20 > Another analogy that was kicked around yesterday on the #bufferbloat irc > channel was the plumbing one - where more and more stuff is poured into > a boiling kettle (a still perhaps) until it overflows, or explodes. >=20 > Here's a title of a piece that *I* daren't write:=20 >=20 > =E2=80=9CDraino for the Intertubes=E2=80=9D >=20 >=20 > I've struggled mightily to explain bufferbloat to so many people. For > example I spent 3 hours talking with an artist that understood protools > - and thought the internet was all slaved to a master clock.=20 >=20 If you believe the telcos, it was (and still should be) as that was the way things like T1s and T3s and ATM all worked. > I'm very glad to see y'all helping out. There's still lots left to do, > not just in communication but in actually getting some work done on both > the easy and hard engineering problems. >=20 I'm not a programmer any more - last major "bare metal" programming I did was on an IBM 360 in assembler. Today I'm mostly a sysadmin and systems designer and programmer manager, but I'm doing a lot of streaming video, which is why I'm interested so much in the buffer bloat. > But staying on the communication front: >=20 > If a little kid asked you, in a small thin voice,=20 >=20 > =E2=80=9CWhy is the internet slow today?=E2=80=9D >=20 > How would you explain it? >=20 > How'd you explain it to a doctor? A lawyer? Your mom? Your boss? strangely enough - this has come up with me recently. I think I passed :) >=20 > As it happens I have studio time this weekend, if anyone is into script > writing I can fake up a few voices. I have two ideas that I might be > able to fit into 2 minutes each, but kind of have to tear myself away > from email to work on...=20 >=20 > > It could have some more technical terms (latency for example) added to > > it but I limited it to the concept of window and ACK for now. > > >=20 > This, though dated, is a good reference on latency. >=20 > http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/rants/Latency.html >=20 yes - that's a good one > A modernized one would be great... There was some good stuff on one of > the audio lists/web sites that I saw, I'll look for it.=20 >=20 I'll think about it. > Audio guys *get* latency. So do the real time guys. Few others. >=20 So do video people - try to explain to a bunch of ageing "eagleholics" that there is a good reason why the audio and video from two cameras in the same eagle nest are out of sync by minutes by the time they've gone through the internet a couple of times and various server systems that are otherwise supposed to be identical, on the way to being viewed by them on a web page side by side. > > It takes the content of a recent ad from a local ISP and talks about > > what is actually going on "under the hood" >=20 > Lots of public confusion to counter. The nice thing is - we have > mitigations that *work*. What do they have? >=20 >=20 talk to you soon richard >=20 --=20 Richard C. Pitt Pacific Data Capture rcpitt@pacdat.net 604-644-9265 http://digital-rag.com www.pacdat.net PGP Fingerprint: FCEF 167D 151B 64C4 3333 57F0 4F18 AF98 9F59 DD73