From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp120.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp120.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.120]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6417E21F214 for ; Thu, 15 May 2014 06:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp8.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 19C2B248110; Thu, 15 May 2014 09:47:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: OK Received: from app32.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay.iad3a.rsapps.net [172.27.255.110]) by smtp8.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id E507324813C; Thu, 15 May 2014 09:47:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from reed.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by app32.wa-webapps.iad3a (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAF07280052; Thu, 15 May 2014 09:47:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by apps.rackspace.com (Authenticated sender: dpreed@reed.com, from: dpreed@reed.com) with HTTP; Thu, 15 May 2014 09:47:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 May 2014 09:47:43 -0400 (EDT) From: dpreed@reed.com To: "Dave Taht" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_20140515094743000000_90722" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Type: html In-Reply-To: References: <3583FA43-EF5B-42D7-A79C-54C87AA514D5@gmail.com> <5373EEFF.5030407@pollere.com> Message-ID: <1400161663.82913275@apps.rackspace.com> X-Mailer: webmail7.0 Cc: cerowrt-devel , bloat Subject: Re: [Bloat] =?utf-8?q?=5BCerowrt-devel=5D__fq=5Fcodel_is_two_years_ol?= =?utf-8?q?d?= X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 May 2014 13:47:45 -0000 ------=_20140515094743000000_90722 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0AWell done. I'm optimistic for deployment everywhere, except CMTS's, the= LTE and HSPA+ access networks, and all corporate firewall and intranet gea= r.=0A =0AThe solution du jour is to leave bufferbloat in place, while using= the real fads: prioritization (diffserv once we have the "fast lanes" full= y legal) and "software defined networking" appliances that use DPI for pack= et routing and traffic management.=0A =0AFixing buffer bloat allows the edg= e- and enterprise- networks to be more efficient, whereas not fixing it let= s the edge networks move users up to more and more expensive "plans" due to= frustration and to sell much more gear into Enterprises because they are e= asy marks for complex gadgets.=0A =0ABut maybe a few engineers who operate = and design gear for such networks will overcome the incredible business bia= ses against fixing this.=0A =0AThat's why all the efforts you guys have put= forth are immensely worth it. I think this is one of the best innovations= in recent years (Bram Cohen's original BitTorrent is another, for fully de= centralizing data delivery for the very first time in a brilliant way.) I w= ill certainly push everywhere I can to see fq_codel deployed.=0A =0AIf ther= e were a prize for brilliant projects, this would be top on my list.=0A =0A= =0A=0AOn Wednesday, May 14, 2014 9:25pm, "Dave Taht" = said:=0A=0A=0A=0A> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Kathleen Nichols =0A> wrote:=0A> >=0A> > Thanks, Rich.=0A> >=0A> > And to sho= w you what an amazing bit of work that first fq_codel was, I have=0A> > on = my calendar that I first "exposed" CoDel to a small group in a=0A> > meetin= g room=0A> > and on the phone at ISC on April 24.=0A> =0A> And we had all s= orts of trouble with the phone, (eric didn't hear=0A> much) and we then spe= nt hours and hours afterwards discussing wifi=0A> instead of codel... it wa= s too much to take in...=0A> =0A> me, I'd started jumping up and down in ex= citement about 20 minutes=0A> into kathies preso...=0A> =0A> May 3rd, 2012 = was the last 24 hr coding stint I think I'll ever have.=0A> =0A> https://li= sts.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/codel/2012-May/000023.html=0A> =0A> Ahh, the = good ole days, when bufferbloat was first solved and we all=0A> thought the= internet would speed up overnight, and we were going to be=0A> rock stars,= invited to all the best parties, acquire fame and fortune,=0A> and be awar= ded medals and given awards. Re-reading all this brought=0A> back memories.= ... (heck, there's still a couple good ideas in that=0A> thread left unimpl= emented)=0A> =0A> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/codel/2012-May/th= read.html=0A> =0A> It looks by may 5th we were getting in shape, and then t= here were a=0A> few other issues along the way with the control law and so = on... and=0A> eric rewrote the whole thing and made it oodles faster and th= en as=0A> best as I recall came up with fq_codel on saturday may 5th(?) -= =0A> =0A> Ah, I haven't had so much fun in in years. My life since then see= ms=0A> like an endless string of meetings, politics, and bugfixing.=0A> =0A= > The code went from sim/paper, to code, to testing, to mainline linux=0A> = in another week. I wish more research went like that!=0A> =0A> commit 76e3c= c126bb223013a6b9a0e2a51238d1ef2e409=0A> Author: Eric Dumazet =0A> Date: Thu May 10 07:51:25 2012 +0000=0A> =0A> codel: Cont= rolled Delay AQM=0A> =0A> Now, as I recall the story, eric came up with fq_= codel on a saturday=0A> afternoon, so I guess that was may 5th - cinco de m= ayo!=0A> =0A> And that too, landed in mainline...=0A> =0A> commit 4b549a2ef= 4bef9965d97cbd992ba67930cd3e0fe=0A> Author: Eric Dumazet =0A> Date: Fri May 11 09:30:50 2012 +0000=0A> =0A> fq_codel: Fair = Queue Codel AQM=0A> =0A> let's not forget tom herbert & BQL=0A> =0A> commit= 75957ba36c05b979701e9ec64b37819adc12f830=0A> Author: Tom Herbert =0A> Date: Mon Nov 28 16:32:35 2011 +0000=0A> =0A> dql: D= ynamic queue limits=0A> =0A> Implementation of dynamic queue limits (dq= l). This is a libary which=0A> allows a queue limit to be dynamically = managed. The goal of dql is=0A> to set the queue limit, number of obje= cts to the queue, to be minimized=0A> without allowing the queue to be = starved.=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> > It was really amazing to me to watch=0A>= > something Van and I had been discussing (okay, arguing) about privately = for=0A> > 6 months and I'd been tinkering with be turned into real code on = real=0A> > networks.=0A> > Jim Gettys is an incredible (and constructive) n= agger, Eric Dumazet and=0A> > amazing=0A> > coder, and the entire open sour= ce community a really nifty group of folks.=0A> >=0A> > Maybe someday we wi= ll actually update the first article with some of the=0A> > stuff=0A> > we = got into the last internet draft....=0A> >=0A> > be the change,=0A>= > Kathie=0A> >=0A> > On 5/14/14 2:01 PM, Rich Brown wrote:= =0A> >> Folks,=0A> >>=0A> >> I just noticed that the announcement for the f= irst testable=0A> >> implementation of fq_codel was two days ago today - 14= May 2012.=0A> >> Build 3.3.6-2 was the first to include working fq_codel.= =0A> >>=0A> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/cerowrt-devel/2012-May/= 000233.html=0A> >>=0A> >> Two years later, we see fq_codel being adopted l= ots of places. As=0A> >> more and more people/organizations come to underst= and the problem,=0A> >> and how straightforward the solution can be, we're = beginning to win=0A> >> the battle to have a good Internet experience every= where.=0A> >>=0A> >> Thanks to Dave, Eric, Kathie, Van, and all the members= of this list=0A> >> for their perseverance, testing, comments, and patienc= e.=0A> >> Congratulations!=0A> >>=0A> >> Best regards,=0A> >>=0A> >> Rich _= ______________________________________________ Bloat mailing=0A> >> list Bl= oat@lists.bufferbloat.net=0A> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/blo= at=0A> >>=0A> >=0A> > _______________________________________________=0A> >= Bloat mailing list=0A> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net=0A> > https://lists.b= ufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> --=0A> Dave T=C3=A4ht=0A> = =0A> NSFW:=0A> https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/russ= ell_0296_indecent.article=0A> _____________________________________________= __=0A> Cerowrt-devel mailing list=0A> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net= =0A> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel=0A> ------=_20140515094743000000_90722 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well done.=  I'm optimistic for deployment everywhere, except CMTS's, the LTE and= HSPA+ access networks, and all corporate firewall and intranet gear.

= =0A

 

=0A

The solution du jour is to leave bufferbloat in place, while using t= he real fads: prioritization (diffserv once we have the "fast lanes" fully = legal) and "software defined networking" appliances that use DPI for packet= routing and traffic management.

=0A

&nb= sp;

=0A

Fixing buffer bloat allows the e= dge- and enterprise- networks to be more efficient, whereas not fixing it l= ets the edge networks move users up to more and more expensive "plans" due = to frustration and to sell much more gear into Enterprises because they are= easy marks for complex gadgets.

=0A

&nb= sp;

=0A

But maybe a few engineers who op= erate and design gear for such networks will overcome the incredible busine= ss biases against fixing this.

=0A

 = ;

=0A

That's why all the efforts you guy= s have put forth are immensely worth it.  I think this is one of the b= est innovations in recent years (Bram Cohen's original BitTorrent is anothe= r, for fully decentralizing data delivery for the very first time in a bril= liant way.) I will certainly push everywhere I can to see fq_codel deployed= .

=0A

 

=0A

If there were a prize for brilliant projects, this would be top= on my list.

=0A

 

=0A





On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 9:= 25pm, "Dave Taht" <dave.taht@gmail.com> said:

=0A
=0A

> On Wed= , May 14, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Kathleen Nichols <nichols@pollere.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks, Rich.
> >> > And to show you what an amazing bit of work that first fq_code= l was, I have
> > on my calendar that I first "exposed" CoDel to= a small group in a
> > meeting room
> > and on the p= hone at ISC on April 24.
>
> And we had all sorts of troub= le with the phone, (eric didn't hear
> much) and we then spent hour= s and hours afterwards discussing wifi
> instead of codel... it was= too much to take in...
>
> me, I'd started jumping up and= down in excitement about 20 minutes
> into kathies preso...
&= gt;
> May 3rd, 2012 was the last 24 hr coding stint I think I'll e= ver have.
>
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/code= l/2012-May/000023.html
>
> Ahh, the good ole days, when bu= fferbloat was first solved and we all
> thought the internet would = speed up overnight, and we were going to be
> rock stars, invited t= o all the best parties, acquire fame and fortune,
> and be awarded = medals and given awards. Re-reading all this brought
> back memorie= s.... (heck, there's still a couple good ideas in that
> thread lef= t unimplemented)
>
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/piperma= il/codel/2012-May/thread.html
>
> It looks by may 5th we w= ere getting in shape, and then there were a
> few other issues alon= g the way with the control law and so on... and
> eric rewrote the = whole thing and made it oodles faster and then as
> best as I recal= l came up with fq_codel on saturday may 5th(?) -
>
> Ah, I= haven't had so much fun in in years. My life since then seems
> li= ke an endless string of meetings, politics, and bugfixing.
>
= > The code went from sim/paper, to code, to testing, to mainline linux> in another week. I wish more research went like that!
> > commit 76e3cc126bb223013a6b9a0e2a51238d1ef2e409
> Author: = Eric Dumazet <edumazet@google.com>
> Date: Thu May 10 07:51= :25 2012 +0000
>
> codel: Controlled Delay AQM
&g= t;
> Now, as I recall the story, eric came up with fq_codel on a s= aturday
> afternoon, so I guess that was may 5th - cinco de mayo!>
> And that too, landed in mainline...
>
>= ; commit 4b549a2ef4bef9965d97cbd992ba67930cd3e0fe
> Author: Eric Du= mazet <edumazet@google.com>
> Date: Fri May 11 09:30:50 201= 2 +0000
>
> fq_codel: Fair Queue Codel AQM
> <= br />> let's not forget tom herbert & BQL
>
> commi= t 75957ba36c05b979701e9ec64b37819adc12f830
> Author: Tom Herbert &l= t;therbert@google.com>
> Date: Mon Nov 28 16:32:35 2011 +0000<= br />>
> dql: Dynamic queue limits
>
> = Implementation of dynamic queue limits (dql). This is a libary which
> allows a queue limit to be dynamically managed. The goal of dql = is
> to set the queue limit, number of objects to the queue, to= be minimized
> without allowing the queue to be starved.
= >
>
>
>
> > It was really amazing= to me to watch
> > something Van and I had been discussing (oka= y, arguing) about privately for
> > 6 months and I'd been tinker= ing with be turned into real code on real
> > networks.
>= ; > Jim Gettys is an incredible (and constructive) nagger, Eric Dumazet = and
> > amazing
> > coder, and the entire open source= community a really nifty group of folks.
> >
> > May= be someday we will actually update the first article with some of the
= > > stuff
> > we got into the last internet draft....
> >
> > be the change,
> > = Kathie
> >
> > On 5/14/14 2:01 PM, Rich Brown wr= ote:
> >> Folks,
> >>
> >> I just= noticed that the announcement for the first testable
> >> im= plementation of fq_codel was two days ago today - 14 May 2012.
> &g= t;> Build 3.3.6-2 was the first to include working fq_codel.
> &= gt;>
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/cerowrt-devel/201= 2-May/000233.html
> >>
> >> Two years later, w= e see fq_codel being adopted lots of places. As
> >> more and= more people/organizations come to understand the problem,
> >&g= t; and how straightforward the solution can be, we're beginning to win
> >> the battle to have a good Internet experience everywhere.> >>
> >> Thanks to Dave, Eric, Kathie, Van, and = all the members of this list
> >> for their perseverance, tes= ting, comments, and patience.
> >> Congratulations!
>= >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >= ;> Rich _______________________________________________ Bloat mailing> >> list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> https:= //lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> >>
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >= Bloat mailing list
> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> &g= t; https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>
>
= >
> --
> Dave T=C3=A4ht
>
> NSFW:
> https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/russell_0296_= indecent.article
> _______________________________________________<= br />> Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbl= oat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>

=0A
 ------=_20140515094743000000_90722--