From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lj1-x233.google.com (mail-lj1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C38F3B29E for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 15:59:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x233.google.com with SMTP id l19so14062lje.10 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:59:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=+uil2iXbX67eT66hgJG9rYojf1Nn9vipqHWctnfwqXQ=; b=eAsZKr/p3iFdCszSFA1eefzv9C/b9FOdH3SfhXG1NH/fwYxxTAQ2R99sZ/PJpFzvrj nCuUwb8uSGm9/rOGh1S4bpruDgH4zsnS6CnUT5Qrwl+eboxqHd7yO4bmY0lyirrh+GMa AjuHJYjzoq+VzXuTzq/txfqiq2g+wgNzAr4RX6Id1kfrZNwjLcvrsU0m1y++C7qNCk/6 yTI40M1dSnUTYGotjkLkyCCAvJmAOClEtJCCX6pjDNkQy3siIB98L3+Rjagt5nFebthK cIndCIcKVJueEt8ruHYzjAJ15EakxZzLVEr3XvdBj56vL7xjhNWTggc1AG/NuCqIeR6k pCyA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=+uil2iXbX67eT66hgJG9rYojf1Nn9vipqHWctnfwqXQ=; b=SA/nhqLZrTMYDtoIAUCCXF3TGZHgmT3UVZHRkzTtK2UWko/dy2sulHKI2EgHHvHRC4 6O2lLRV9PbwxTGFGTwN7XEHZenwsBSlrwVx2McFoQDHOnLsV0kR4VI2t1vRifSHRIXR6 /9BiitFrjOFX8Kb+rOtxQ5dqdyGYdaOb3F+XpB9DfK7hCuE5EuaPE8FQM+hj5rkTpGcH AVNQAkaaavZW4LZl8yzdBwTK40VjGrlwtSlwKDJ/ZSOYvvNgi8UkFWtoQ0MBU94gyWG9 KU1STkDW0GFciNoEb9m5LBsPOQaO7nhcvL9jAub9vwebetxisqtSgRAi1buJxk6F5kp9 ETeA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYX/AGzwaTgev5FJ29eQpI9z05W6KYTDGsqBBz8vp5mtOdeH5Pg Pepn14xN2kDqlhdbrQYmusY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLEBBfXSNh3fJ49E2x3s7xo3QLs384Dpas5oo2CdWdW5TQsCqYmL0ZdSnoCCZhoS+H3N+3xQA== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:a556:: with SMTP id e22mr18648156ljn.130.1588103945421; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jonathartonsmbp.lan (83-245-235-192-nat-p.elisa-mobile.fi. [83.245.235.192]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q125sm183150ljb.34.2020.04.28.12.59.04 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Jonathan Morton In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 22:59:03 +0300 Cc: Luca Muscariello , Gorry Fairhurst , tsvwg IETF list , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <151D6673-BD73-4687-8AD5-D8D1CEA87D16@gmail.com> References: <744B09AC-F251-4FB8-84B4-6628BB79E1F6@akamai.com> To: "Black, David" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Subject: Re: [Bloat] [tsvwg] my backlogged comments on the ECT(1) interim call X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 19:59:06 -0000 > On 28 Apr, 2020, at 10:43 pm, Black, David = wrote: >=20 > And I also noted this at the end of the meeting: =E2=80=9Cqueue = protection that might apply the disincentive=E2=80=9D > =20 > That would send cheaters to the L4S conventional queue along with all = the other queue-building traffic. Alas, we have not yet seen an integrated implementation of the queue = protection mechanism, so that we can test its effectiveness. I think it = is part of the extra evidence that would be needed before a decision = could be taken in favour of using ECT(1) as an input. I would also note in this context that mere volume of data, or length of = development, are not marks that should be taken in favour of a proposal. = The relevance, quality, thoroughness and results of data collection = must be carefully evaluated, and it could easily be argued that a = lengthy development cycle that still has not produced reliable results = should be retired, to avoid throwing good money after bad. The fact = that we were able to find serious problems with the (only?) reference = implementation of L4S using a relatively small, but independently = selected test suite does not lend confidence in its maturity. Reputable engineers know that it is necessary to establish a robust = design first. Only then can a robust implementation be hoped for. It = is the basic design decision, over the semantics of each ECN codepoint, = that we were trying to discuss yesterday. I'm not certain that everyone = in the room understood that. - Jonathan Morton