From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-io0-x22c.google.com (mail-io0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 888553B29E for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 18:00:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-io0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id j18so54793936ioe.2 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 15:00:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iAqkDEFxv7H0wy1l839JFhNlYDYV0ZyBwQxKuXGE+50=; b=r05I0HClgvQs6MnsJeauQWWuN8GdblT4i77GqIUP3NUU0+ROOdWnUCyaGC7aY5qsh6 GMw+i5VZWQjLPGn4YHsfxK3XakCB0uDLAYWcXHomrwJ1DaUxe9rpj0Jma8hMRxAAsy6g a8fK/kw7f7vXcHlVvNph2vlRMQ2g8ps7nTfY8EgK0zfYPgwiueaVxuTN3E/BcB8zyu+9 rsJnznMsfQBo+Uy1QfY9J6HddenCella4W05L61XL3ycRN1E/8D/iNvET3eWYwkNG/l7 N2MXlhe5BLbAusZ3aI+tiQxFoqGN3HYNz8LJKEfYs79avs92ajN6OvZPiPfNtQQb+51f okwA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iAqkDEFxv7H0wy1l839JFhNlYDYV0ZyBwQxKuXGE+50=; b=emAuINp8ZiBacHIjmX+Z/U56NyT8eJ49cj8OAAfE2VCOIEBcqWNOWLZyGNu9nDjL8G VMidny1ppjq1zyfH1obTZB5jOVnbFQc0b9mT0h0A/Ze58U36SWkRfQ0mCuiQzAy1iQIj HKzmn/3Z9YSddRvXhD8k/dtBRs7O6s/8BsCXJ5W2+NjjLxsBJyFlSeBuj0FbtATDUvKL x8K8XPo5yo0jQPPFDdiH7oz1Ye7SX50U1xX6SZ9m6W7KCAyKW84BDYzHl/qF8v/03AM8 2gyRFPKLbz7el7sVmOhsJwbt7uyl43LlFubHgmXXe+qGdPvsB8WdhG867sbjAt71qUmY /4ow== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJWqN3qgEVmtJsWAJIsMGc0K4vFCSUscOrymc0Px/zIuQ7qRAH0TrQR54XqO2mi+w== X-Received: by 10.107.181.19 with SMTP id e19mr20088457iof.104.1484348451705; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 15:00:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:404:381:a3f:10a2:67af:a78d:ffd6? ([2601:404:381:a3f:10a2:67af:a78d:ffd6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m9sm7290042ioa.12.2017.01.13.15.00.50 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 13 Jan 2017 15:00:51 -0800 (PST) To: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net References: From: Noah Causin Message-ID: <15244f61-e534-9d10-f6ab-0d70600f8c5d@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 18:00:41 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Bloat] how much delay is too much delay X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 23:00:52 -0000 He mentions symptoms of bufferbloat indirectly and states his recommended router with QOS from here on. https://youtu.be/m1Nfxvl8vfc?t=14m36s It is the Netgear Nighthawk X4S. https://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/wifi-routers/R7800.aspx It uses fq_codel in its QOS implementation. I'm not sure which models of the Netgear Nighthawk have airtime fairness, but I think that is the reason the routers are highly acclaimed by users. On 1/13/2017 6:02 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > > https://www.youtube.com/user/xFPxAUTh0r1ty > > This channel analyses several online games and how they work > networkwise. It seems online games typically "tick" at 30-60Hz in that > the game server and user application communicates this often. 60Hz > seems to be the "golden standard", and I guess resolution of 17ms is > fine for when things are happening. > > In gaming they have multiple delay components, one is "input delay" > which relates to the time it takes from you for instance press the > mouse button, until the game shows that it has responded by showing > you result on screen. It seems this is typically 40-60ms, because the > game needs to handle the input, send data to the graphics card, which > needs to render it, and then it needs to be sent to the monitor. There > are of course a lot more than this, but you get the idea. > > I don't know what the delay is from mouse-click to when the game knows > you clicked, and then can send out this information to the game > server, but from what I'm guessing from reading up on the topic, this > is in the "less than 10ms" range. So theoretically, the game can send > an update to the game server much quicker than it can display on the > local screen. > > Another data point for instance for the game "Rocket League", is that > the highest ranking players have a hard time playing effectively when > the user-to-game server "ping" is more than approximately 100ms. I > don't know if this is RTT, but considering they're getting around > 130ms from a user in Texas to a server in Europe, it seems reasonable > that this is RTT. > > My reason for bringing this up (again) in the bloat forum, is that > these people are exactly the kind of people who are very sensitive to > problems that "anti-bloat" solves. If we can come up with a solution > that makes it less likely that these people will get "ping spikes" > etc, and we can package up something that actually solves this > (preferrably something they can go to the store and buy outright), > this would be a great way to "market" it. I'm quite sure they'd be > interested in making videos about it to make more people aware of the > problem. > > There are multiple "gaming routers" out there, with "QoS". I have no > idea what this "QoS" does. If anyone knows, I'd be very interested in > knowing more. >