From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp64.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp64.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.64]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3827D3B2A4 for ; Fri, 10 Aug 2018 23:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp9.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp9.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 0CB46436D; Fri, 10 Aug 2018 23:35:00 -0400 (EDT) X-SMTPDoctor-Processed: csmtpprox beta Received: from smtp9.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp9.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 083BC5676; Fri, 10 Aug 2018 23:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from app59.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by smtp9.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id E25B6436D; Fri, 10 Aug 2018 23:34:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender-Id: dpreed@deepplum.com Received: from app59.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by 0.0.0.0:25 (trex/5.7.12); Fri, 10 Aug 2018 23:34:59 -0400 Received: from deepplum.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by app59.wa-webapps.iad3a (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0F33416BD; Fri, 10 Aug 2018 23:34:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by apps.rackspace.com (Authenticated sender: dpreed@deepplum.com, from: dpreed@deepplum.com) with HTTP; Fri, 10 Aug 2018 23:34:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Auth-ID: dpreed@deepplum.com Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 23:34:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "dpreed@deepplum.com" To: "Dave Taht" Cc: "bloat" , cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Type: plain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1533958499.841130592@apps.rackspace.com> X-Mailer: webmail/15.4.1-RC Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] fcc initial comments due sept 10 X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 03:35:00 -0000 Just to remind everyone, "Broadband" is a term invented by the cable indust= ry to describe "bundled cable TV, phone, and Internet", pretty much "aka DO= CSIS".=0A=0AThe confidence game played on America was to promote the idea t= hat the US would deliver Broadband across the entire country (particularly = rural locations where people have not had cable TV, much less bundled with = phone and high speed Internet. And it was conflated with recovering from th= e 2007-2008 economic crash as a "shovel ready" job creation program, enhanc= ing ghe opportunity of rural locations to create "good jobs" in the IT serv= ice industries.=0A=0AOf course, the folks who wanted to see Internet connec= tivity spread and restructure the economic structure of communications deci= ded not to look this "gift horse" in the mouth. Congress was going to fund = rollouts of Cable TV (new and upgrades), and as a side effect, maybe some b= etter Internet. (but no "over the top" TV like Netflix or VoIP telephony, j= ust leave TV alone and use Cable Labs telephony standards at the RF level).= =0A=0ANow it's worth realizing that by accepting this framing of Broadband = as the goal, not ubiquitous and interoperable high speed Internet itself, y= ou basically put monopoly/oligoply Cable TV companies in control of the cou= ntry's communicstions future.=0A=0AIs this a good plan for thinking about t= he future of the Internet in the US? I really think it is a bad direction.= =0A=0ANow 25 Mb/sec is totally fine for most standard WWW/email usage, and = even a little YouTube watching. But remember, such Internet on DOCSIS 3.1 = or on 25 year old Verizon FiOS technology alongside cable TV over Verison F= iOS still uses a TINY fraction of the installed cable analog capacity for I= nternet service. The architecture of the Cable TV service distributes *ever= y* channel simultaneously to every endpoint, consuming outrageous bandwidth= compared to the 25 Mb/s diddly squat usage on the "broad band" cable or fi= ber.=0A=0AThe idea that it is the government's job to "incent" private indu= stry with pretty much oligopoly control of premises connectivity to make mo= ney is one of the perverse political arguments in the industry. They "poorm= outh" how they "can't make money", when in fact their High Speed Internet s= ervice has the highest profit margins of any of their service offerings. Th= ey are making money hand over fist on the Internet piece, and it costs them= next to nothing to provide it. (Prices don't track costs, because there is= no competition at all in most places, because the government prevents new = competitors.)=0A=0ASo it just seems strange to me that we have this debate = about how fast is fast enough, as if the government has to force companies = to make money hand over fist.=0A=0ANope - what is going on here is somethin= g a little subtle. What the cable companies don't want, what they are fight= ing for, are two things:=0A=0A1) no competitive entry whatsoever, no way. T= hey have to make sure that state and local governments think they can't aff= ord to upgrade their plants, despite strong customer interest. Of course, n= o new investment is required if there is no competition, and their story is= that if the FCC allows competitors their incentive will vanish and they wi= ll stop investing. (that makes it the only industry in history whose incent= ive vanishes when there is competition on a profitable service. And they ar= e NOT losing money on Internet service, far from it, if you look at the boo= ks they show their investors, not the regulators).=0A=0A2) The right to bil= l both sides of communications transactions arbitrarily large prices for re= achability - they make their customers pay to get access to the public Inte= rnet, and also the cloud, web, content servers pay them to provide adequate= connections. This is a two-sided market. It arises when the "middle" can = create arbitrary scarcity at will. (a "protection racket" is a two sided ma= rket, too).=0A=0ASo, in responding to this notice by the FCC of a "standard= " for Broadband, just realize that you might want to question the entire pr= oposition that Broadband is a thing that needs a standard.=0A=0AWhat "high = speed" means in the Internet is a much more meaningful question, but that's= a truth in advertising question. And it really has to do with "response ti= me" more than any guarantee of an "up to" speed. How long does it take Netf= lix to buffer enough content to play the rest of the show without interrupt= ion? (that's why you need burst rate) How fast do your trigger pulls on you= r multiperson VR shooter get reflected on all the other players' displays?= =0A=0APeople do pay more for that. But the standard of what "that" is - hig= h speed, very high speed, ... isn't just 25 Mb/sec. It's also bufferbloat, = for example.=0A=0ATHink about that, and don't get sucked into comments on w= hat Cable TV should do for minimal Internet quality.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A--= ---Original Message-----=0AFrom: "Dave Taht" =0ASent: = Friday, August 10, 2018 7:47pm=0ATo: "bloat" ,= cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net=0ASubject: [Cerowrt-devel] fcc initial= comments due sept 10=0A=0Ahttps://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2= 018/08/speedier-broadband-standards-pais-fcc-says-25mbps-is-fast-enough/=0A= =0A=0A-- =0A=0ADave T=C3=A4ht=0ACEO, TekLibre, LLC=0Ahttp://www.teklibre.co= m=0ATel: 1-669-226-2619=0A_______________________________________________= =0ACerowrt-devel mailing list=0ACerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net=0Ahttps= ://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel=0A