From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp112.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp112.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65D993CB35 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2019 11:12:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp7.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp7.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3489E4EB0; Tue, 26 Mar 2019 11:12:33 -0400 (EDT) X-SMTPDoctor-Processed: csmtpprox beta Received: from smtp7.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp7.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2B44A5ABC; Tue, 26 Mar 2019 11:12:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from app29.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by smtp7.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id F22AE4EB0; Tue, 26 Mar 2019 11:12:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from app29.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by 0.0.0.0:25 (trex/5.7.12); Tue, 26 Mar 2019 11:12:33 -0400 Received: from deepplum.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by app29.wa-webapps.iad3a (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB7AC20511; Tue, 26 Mar 2019 11:12:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by apps.rackspace.com (Authenticated sender: dpreed@deepplum.com, from: dpreed@deepplum.com) with HTTP; Tue, 26 Mar 2019 11:12:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 11:12:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "David P. Reed" To: "Mikael Abrahamsson" Cc: "Holland, Jake" , "ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net" , "bloat" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <1553613152.830913564@apps.rackspace.com> X-Mailer: mobile/7.1.1 Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] can we setup a X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 15:12:33 -0000 This, and the general question of how to get any change like this into the = IP forwarding components of existing networks, seems to be a very important= and tough question. IETF seems to be unable to mandate anything, even when there is rough conse= nsus and working code. The power has shifted to customers of equipment vendors. The business innovation for those customers is now called 5G. That's not th= e 3GPP standard called 5G, but a vague buzzword marketing race that pretty = much wants to make the Internet slowly die. Fronts of that are: 1. IoT. Cloud-server-based. Uses IP but doesn't care about it. A new "overl= ay internet" that doesn't get built by IETF at all. 2. Small cells instead of hotspots. Key is that small cells are owned by a = telecom operator, and though on or near private premises, the premise owner= s has no authority over what traffic they transport. Business model include= s your access provider owning the wireless airtime in your home or business= . No more Private Branch Exchange style deals. Instead you lease a cell or = mesh of cells from the cable or phone company you select as your 5G provide= r. 3. PWAs replace websites. Eventually, 5G operators own these "enclaves" on = your phone, Chromebook, Mac, ...that are controlled by the PWA vendor. The = vendors, like PC ISVs used to, are closed and proprietary distributed app m= akers. The data of users is held in the enclaves and the "backends". Though= W3C protocols are used, including WebRTC, the way they are used by these b= usinesses involves harvesting data about people and their behavior, kept se= cret in cloud vaults to which each PWA has secure access. These vaults form= a privatized economy of information used to predict and control user behav= ior through the PWAs that are hosted on user devices. Given that evolution of a new internetwork structure, how to get the plumbi= ng fixed? Simple: move the ideas to be central to 5G networking. At the moment, 5G is very much tangled with IP. That is rapidly changing as= we speak. Also note that cablecos and cellularcos are converging to this definition o= f 5G. Some tech is different: 802.11 is shifting to be part of cableco' off= ering, while short range high speed 5G NR and mmWave are the new cellular h= otspots. But both are WLANs, and 802.11x is no longer peer to peer. But the= overall business goals are identical. There is a competitive war. Most of IETF wirk is irrelevant and will be time wasted. Thus vision of 5G = as replacing today's Internet is the context. Think Solaris as IETF Interne= t, 5G as RedHat. ----Original Message----- From: "Mikael Abrahamsson" Sent: Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 9:20 am To: "Holland, Jake" Cc: "Holland, Jake" , "ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net"= , "bloat" Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] can we setup a "how to get this into existingnetwor= ks" get-together in Prague coming week? On Tue, 26 Mar 2019, Holland, Jake wrote: > Hi Mikael, > > Any operator nibbles on making this meeting happen? Nobody else expressed any interest in this, so I kind of dropped the idea. --=20 Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se _______________________________________________ Ecn-sane mailing list Ecn-sane@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/ecn-sane