[Bloat] Re: [Cake] Re: XDP2 is here - from one and only Tom Herbert (almost to the date, 10 years after XDP was released)

["David P. Reed" <dpreed@deepplum.com>]

I agree. The best solution, I think, is to move all the device management outside the kernel, and compiling the device abstractions into code that runs in user-level isolation.
 
On Wednesday, September 10, 2025 04:54, BeckW@telekom.de said:



> Interesting work! One problem of P4 is that the networking hardware varies so much
> in number of resources (queues, schedulers, policers, counters, table memory) that
> the code inevitably becomes tied to a certain system.
> It will be difficult to abstract the peculiarities of systems -- eg Broadcom 88800
> vs linux kernel -- in a good way.
> 
> Wolfgang
> 
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Tom Herbert via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. September 2025 23:37
> An: Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
> Cc: David P. Reed <dpreed@deepplum.com>; Cake List
> <cake@lists.bufferbloat.net>; codel@lists.bufferbloat.net; bloat
> <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Jeremy Austin via Rpm
> <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Betreff: [Bloat] Re: [Cake] Re: XDP2 is here - from one and only Tom Herbert
> (almost to the date, 10 years after XDP was released)
> 
> On Tue, Sep 9, 2025, 5:03 PM Frantisek Borsik
> <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks a lot, David.
> >
> > I have asked Tom if he wants to join us and he should be here to chat
> > with us now.
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >
> >
> > *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
> >
> > https://deu01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flibr
> > eqos.io%2F2025%2F04%2F01%2Fin-loving-memory-of-dave%2F&data=05%7C02%7C
> > BeckW%40telekom.de%7C299d64b9b76b4d4cf88b08ddf039e105%7Cbde4dffc4b604c
> > f68b04a5eeb25f5c4f%7C0%7C0%7C638930853609276702%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3
> > d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoi
> > TWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=TAA6NdEkB3KQQt8UhKqs3ZKuLj
> > N7A9h9J9FAjNRDDuU%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> > https://deu01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> > linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ffrantisekborsik&data=05%7C02%7CBeckW%40telekom.de%
> > 7C299d64b9b76b4d4cf88b08ddf039e105%7Cbde4dffc4b604cf68b04a5eeb25f5c4f%
> > 7C0%7C0%7C638930853609297031%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiO
> > nRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%
> > 3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ucL7U%2FQ81ks09nVEGUbe%2FFq1rhJNLaegicv%2FLCV
> > cIlg%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> >
> > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> >
> > Skype: casioa5302ca
> >
> > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 9, 2025 at 10:25 PM David P. Reed
> <dpreed@deepplum.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Frank -
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I think it is interesting as a concept. A project I am advising has
> > > been using DPDK very effectively to get rid of the huge path and
> > > locking
> > delays
> > > in the current Linux network stack. XDP2 could be supported in a
> > > ring3
> > > (user) address space, achieving a similar result.
> >
> 
> HI David,
> 
> The idea is you could write the code in XDP2 and it would be compiled to DPDK or
> eBPF and the compiler would handle the optimizations.
> 
> 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > But I don't think XDP2 is going that direction - so it may be
> > > stuckinto the mess of kernel space networking. Adding eBPF only has
> > > made this more
> > of
> > > a mess, by the way (and adding a new "compiler" that needs to be
> > > veriried as safe for the kernel).
> 
> 
> Think of XDP2 as the generalization of XDP to go beyond just the kernel.
> The idea is that the user writes their datapath code once and they compile it to
> run in whatever targets they have-- DPDK, P4, other programmable hardware, and yes
> XDP/eBPF. It's really not limited to kernel networking.
> 
> As for the name XDP2, when we created XDP, eXpress DataPath, my vision was that it
> would be implementation agnostic. eBPF was the first instantiation for
> practicality, but now ten years later I think we can realize the initial vision.
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > > I will be watching how this evolves.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, September 9, 2025 06:32, "Frantisek Borsik" <
> > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com> said:
> > >
> > > > Hello to all,
> > > >
> > > > Looks interesting:
> > > >
> > >
> > https://deu01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmedi
> > um.com%2F%40tom_84912%2Fxdp2-this-changes-everything-at-least-for-ai-m
> > l-infrastructure-850c1ba82771&data=05%7C02%7CBeckW%40telekom.de%7C299d
> > 64b9b76b4d4cf88b08ddf039e105%7Cbde4dffc4b604cf68b04a5eeb25f5c4f%7C0%7C
> > 0%7C638930853609308950%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWU
> > sIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%
> > 7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=RTLHTVFR540C8Psr73uiuRvkx1sSyjmlUIICEHFj0HA%3D&rese
> > rved=0
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > All the best,
> > > >
> > > > Frank
> > > >
> > > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
> > > >
> > > > https://deu01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2F
> > > > libreqos.io%2F2025%2F04%2F01%2Fin-loving-memory-of-dave%2F&data=05
> > > > %7C02%7CBeckW%40telekom.de%7C299d64b9b76b4d4cf88b08ddf039e105%7Cbd
> > > > e4dffc4b604cf68b04a5eeb25f5c4f%7C0%7C0%7C638930853609323027%7CUnkn
> > > > own%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAi
> > > > OiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=98
> > > > musUCMTZR4ID%2Bo6GYxWOX99aiYBspBUdh%2BNV1fzwc%3D&reserved=0
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > https://deu01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2F
> > > > www.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ffrantisekborsik&data=05%7C02%7CBeckW%40tel
> > > > ekom.de%7C299d64b9b76b4d4cf88b08ddf039e105%7Cbde4dffc4b604cf68b04a
> > > > 5eeb25f5c4f%7C0%7C0%7C638930853609334239%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8e
> > > > yJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjo
> > > > iTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0rD47zFeLVV1YDqMc5SO0
> > > > xGWEOTrE3FOYv0mOqGF%2FW4%3D&reserved=0
> > > >
> > > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> > > >
> > > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> > > >
> > > > Skype: casioa5302ca
> > > >
> > > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
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