From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.de header.i=moeller0@gmx.de header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=s31663417 header.b=Wk4Irvcg; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmx.de policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E5A2199E6BC; Wed, 04 Nov 2026 16:40:26 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1793806820; x=1794411620; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=L19kICaZL01h0i5CX6OvH9mxHc3GGgfPIHZsfrPQo3Y=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=Wk4IrvcgQX/YyJRapzoFq5u+gwk+NnhIsIFYqLeVRQ3y7duZyxADOsEmvqR/kj3e VIPHvuANehcPDDTKyLoBPUAq7IyjqDqwATjSWAPDGiJeo9z5rkifPej/Yswfsxank 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References: <409d88430a154642b1183accedfa97709d51d1e1586146c3a922af0a185d72f4@OS5P279MB0502.NORP279.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> <66aec73e-351c-4db3-a63c-a9e69978e16b@thexlab.org> To: sascha@thexlab.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3901.200.71.1.16) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:RU0DtyO7bGwjReaZ7RzXGKmMsts7yPdnknqXE49pW6gI6XmllKb 1WNESP8CgKtQPMe5e2E023uP7H+X/TA6T97wb09Mg5VYqomJyrDlJewnNxCgzTQf6RHo4dv Bt3YB59HD9jN7gXTTmvLQyhOQUJ9EaasGxkDxyHgFiPm74ZAmTCJCfSgpEq+qHTrk+EhZDv o0uyojpV5KMZxBK8hfBfg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:mjjf/MujZ1g=;omGlBbYa9S4Tc3QsAwZB/rDM6ZL ddEl9GDXXHc8Bj6Jo2819JL0an5bqunwhLmc2yIlKFyjuvGI0ZxHVEemKRdhPZoozNkGqY/cM CEnfy6+4Uuj94dWmACCgfO+HRtCQfL5zeMpTz9BqnWF1Q15mBUkepjkuNUHNg0Cj025M3Zi4k b1WqP+vfwnZn+7fDF9y0i4mDW8f6Ay9231GjHfHpqPU9ZddhTpCmJg9xlEaVVxTFX8k2I1OoN +Qz/Dm4RIULvAPQ0vUzTBtB8ttqS2UQxu0NJv9RnlakP0lB8jamzl1i4XvsZBT3iZ+xsXhaYw tJQ8/d3ePanyHuk4Y404aC38r+UiOMLYg+H8tY/Q6NGQPE4VGSHtEPTOBnQ+URiJfOp/gi0VX 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Y+LIpm4sDhn8Ns0HjNbWjqY3AvGtqy5T3BEtrGhm+hZIdSTMhMA/SZVEMKXsK1h4iHazi/Gp1 zeSW8FxoiK1iPV0Y6RIRQoRXOtrD+fUJdZolWtH1/JjRIo/nbE= Message-ID-Hash: PRT2Q7ZO7YSPWGGXGTAT4ATWASHM65YP X-Message-ID-Hash: PRT2Q7ZO7YSPWGGXGTAT4ATWASHM65YP X-MailFrom: moeller0@gmx.de X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Bloat] Re: [NNagain] The French have decided to destroy the Internet within their own country by taxing Gigabits (Dr. Peering) List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Sascha, > On Nov 2, 2026, at 15:30, Sascha Meinrath wrote: >=20 > I can't wait until the French Parliament learns about VPNs... It would = be absolutely *wonderful* if all the ISPs passed along the tax to their = customers... and then taught all their customers that VPNed traffic = would, for obvious reasons, be exempted. Not how this is supposed to work: the ISP aggregates its end-customer = bound traffic volume by ASN and reports these aggregates quarterly, the = tax office sends the ASNs the tax bill. VPN does not really matter, = except now it is the VPN provider that is on the hook for the money. The = amendment does not address VPNs but for CDNs that are in a similar = picckle the idea is that CDN operators either pass on the cost or "eat" = it themselves (both half-baked ideas). The only oddity VPNs add is that = they typically receive no money from the actual content providers, but = the end users. >=20 > I find proposals like this to be absolutely idiotic -- and, they are = yet another step in the global data obfuscation arms race. Oh, that proposal is pretty half-baked, no arggument there, but I think = we differ in which of its half-baked-ness we consider worst ;) >=20 > #encrypteverything Well, if you look what this is supposed to operate on encryption is not = really an option, as this operates on source and destination IP = addresses, that are somewhat prickly to encrypt if you want packets = delivered... >=20 > --Sascha >=20 > On 11/2/26 6:23 AM, Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain wrote: >> Hi Michael, >>> On Nov 2, 2026, at 08:44, Michael Welzl wrote: >>>=20 >>> The tax is 5 cents per Gigabyte. This is insane. >> Back of the envelop calculations for video streaming (assuming this = to be the one category driving most of the sustained capacity usage): >> common use seems to be HD streaming (say on average at 5 Mbps), with = say 2 hours per day, 7 days per week: >> (5 * 1000^2) * (60 * 60 * 2 * 30) / (8 * 1000^3) =3D 135 GB >> -> 135 * 0.055 =3D 7.425 Euro/month >> typical cost for midrange (ad-free) video streaming in france: 8-15 = Euro >> depending on the reference contract tier, the tax almost as large as = the total revenue, no way this could be priced-in without significant = price increases. >> The proposed tax indeed seems quite steep, however it is capped at = 15% of revenue in france or 2% of world-wide revenue >> So that would get this more in like with a 15% tax... on revenue, = still nothing to sneeze at, but a far cry from the numbers one gets when = simply multiplying... >> Regards >> Sebastian >> P.S.: My take this is half-baked and will not make it through the = further legislative process in that form. >>> It goes against how we agree to use the Internet. >>>=20 >>> English version: >>> "France has recently approved a highly controversial "Internet = Traffic >>> Tax" (or Gigabyte Tax) as part of the 2027 budget bill amendments. = The >>> new levy targets digital content providers based on the volume of = data >>> they transmit to French internet users, which is monitored by = network >>> operators and Internet Service Providers (ISPs) heavily utilizing >>> Internet Exchange Points like France-IX." >>>=20 >>> Google AI summary: >>> "Key Metrics & Tax Rates >>> =E2=80=A2 =E2=82=AC0.055 per gigabyte charged to content providers. >>> =E2=80=A2 Capped at 15% of a provider's French revenue. >>> =E2=80=A2 Capped at 2% of a provider's global revenue. >>> =E2=80=A2 Measured directly by French network operators and ISPs." >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 2026-10-31 13:56, Frantisek Borsik wrote: >>>> Crossposting, because this garbage idea might "inspire" more = countries >>>> and >>>> have a horrible impact also on bufferbloat everywhere. >>>>=20 >>>> *Original post by Dr. Peering:* >>>>=20 >>>> *"The French have decided to destroy the Internet within their own >>>> country >>>> by taxing Gigabits. Here=E2=80=99s Octave Klaba's excellent = analysis [in >>>> French, >>>> link below] showing just how insane the finance bill actually is. = The >>>> IXP >>>> taxation amount is, just for starters, ridiculous!"* >>>>=20 >>>> https://x.com/drpeering/status/2116468659392807 >>>> = >>>>=20 >>>> *Octave's post:* >>>>=20 >>>> = https://fr.linkedin.com/posts/octave-klaba-3a0b3632_jai-lu-lamendement-i-1= 358-au-plf-2027-activity-7522219045576888320-uqkw >>>>=20 >>>> *Copy+paste:* >>>>=20 >>>> J'ai lu l'amendement I-1358 au PLF 2027, adopt=C3=A9 ce vendredi =C3=A0= >>>> l'Assembl=C3=A9e : >>>> une taxe de 0,055 =E2=82=AC par Go envoy=C3=A9 vers les abonn=C3=A9s = des FAI fran=C3=A7ais. Le >>>> chiffre est abstrait, alors comparons-le. Corrigez-moi si vous = voyez >>>> des >>>> erreurs. >>>>=20 >>>> Deux comparaisons et un cas concret : >>>>=20 >>>> 1. Le transit et le peering. Un port 100 Gbps co=C3=BBte environ 6 = 300 =E2=82=AC par >>>> mois chez un fournisseur de transit mondial. En interconnexion = directe >>>> avec >>>> un FAI europ=C3=A9en, compter 3 =C3=A0 5 fois plus, soit 20 =C3=A0 = 30 k=E2=82=AC par mois. Sur >>>> ce >>>> port (a), la taxe atteint 1,02 M=E2=82=AC par mois, soit environ = 3400 % =C3=A0 16300 >>>> % >>>> du prix d'une interconnexion vers les FAI fran=C3=A7ais. On change = donc >>>> profond=C3=A9ment le mod=C3=A8le =C3=A9conomique de la bande = passante en France. >>>>=20 >>>> 2. Les hyperscalers sont critiqu=C3=A9s pour le prix de leur trafic = sortant, >>>> qui >>>> va d'environ 0,08=E2=82=AC =C3=A0 0,045=E2=82=AC par Go selon le = volume. La taxe, 0,055 =E2=82=AC >>>> par >>>> Go, repr=C3=A9sente 68 % =C3=A0 123 % de ce prix. On parle donc de = doubler, pour >>>> le >>>> trafic vers la France, un prix d=C3=A9j=C3=A0 jug=C3=A9 trop = =C3=A9lev=C3=A9 ! >>>>=20 >>>> 3. Le cas d'OVHcloud. Nous envoyons de l'ordre de 500 Gbps au 95e >>>> percentile vers les FAI fran=C3=A7ais, soit environ 324 Gbps en = moyenne. Sur >>>> un >>>> an, la taxe brute atteindrait 70 M=E2=82=AC. Le texte la plafonne = =C3=A0 15 % du CA >>>> r=C3=A9alis=C3=A9 en France ou =C3=A0 2 % du CA mondial, soit entre = environ 23 et 70 >>>> M=E2=82=AC >>>> par an que nous devrions collecter pour l'=C3=89tat, et donc = r=C3=A9percuter sur >>>> nos >>>> clients. >>>>=20 >>>> Conclusions : >>>>=20 >>>> 1. Une taxe porte en g=C3=A9n=C3=A9ral sur une petite fraction de = son assiette. >>>> Celle-ci vaut plus de 3000 % du co=C3=BBt du transit, et environ = 100 % du >>>> prix >>>> public des hyperscalers. Rappelez-vous la loi SREN, vot=C3=A9e pour >>>> supprimer >>>> les frais de transfert qui emp=C3=AAchaient les clients de quitter = un >>>> fournisseur cloud. Ici, on parle de doubler le prix du trafic = sortant >>>> vers >>>> les internautes fran=C3=A7ais, un prix d=C3=A9j=C3=A0 tr=C3=A8s = probl=C3=A9matique. >>>>=20 >>>> 2. Le garde-fou, un plafond calcul=C3=A9 sur le chiffre d'affaires, = est >>>> incoh=C3=A9rent. Ce chiffre d'affaires couvre des serveurs, du = stockage, des >>>> datacenters et des =C3=A9quipes sans rapport avec la bande = passante. C'est >>>> comme >>>> cr=C3=A9er une taxe calcul=C3=A9e sur la consommation =C3=A9lectrique= des usines >>>> automobiles en France, plafonn=C3=A9e =C3=A0 15 % du chiffre = d'affaires des >>>> constructeurs. Quel rapport entre les deux ? >>>>=20 >>>> 3. Une taxe nationale de ce type frappe =C3=A0 coup s=C3=BBr les = entreprises >>>> =C3=A9tablies >>>> en France, alors que leurs concurrents mondiaux sans pr=C3=A9sence = en France >>>> livrent le m=C3=AAme trafic aux m=C3=AAmes FAI fran=C3=A7ais sans = payer cette taxe en >>>> pratique. Cela cr=C3=A9e une distorsion de concurrence au = d=C3=A9triment des >>>> acteurs >>>> nationaux et d=C3=A9classe les entreprises qui embauchent en = France. Une >>>> taxe >>>> qui produit l'effet inverse serait une meilleure approche. >>>>=20 >>>> (a) Factur=C3=A9 au 95e percentile, ce port n'est pas plein en = permanence : >>>> avec >>>> un profil journalier type (22 % vers 4 h, 90 % vers 21 h), il >>>> transporte en >>>> moyenne 57 % de sa capacit=C3=A9, soit 18,6 millions de Go par = mois. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> All the best, >>>>=20 >>>> Frank >>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >>>>=20 >>>> In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: 1965-2025 >>>> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik >>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714> >>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <775%20230%20885> >>>> Skype: casioa5302ca >>>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Bloat mailing list -- bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to bloat-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Bloat mailing list -- bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to bloat-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Bloat mailing list -- bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to bloat-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net >> _______________________________________________ >> Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net >=20 > --=20 > Sascha Meinrath > Director, X-Lab > Palmer Chair in Telecommunications > Penn State University