From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mout.gmx.net", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-1" (verified OK)) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B168321F289 for ; Thu, 7 May 2015 00:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from u-089-csam313b.am5.uni-tuebingen.de ([134.2.89.14]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M3zne-1Z7WHb22BW-00rVu4; Thu, 07 May 2015 09:33:45 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <87oalxjv2g.fsf@alrua-karlstad.karlstad.toke.dk> Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 09:33:43 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1D0DF6BC-A1EB-4D0E-A768-D490DD36180C@gmx.de> References: <1429717468.18561.90.camel@edumazet-glaptop2.roam.corp.google.com> <5537CDB7.60301@orange.com> <1429722979.18561.112.camel@edumazet-glaptop2.roam.corp.google.com> <5537DA20.1090008@orange.com> <5537DE4D.8090100@orange.com> <553882D7.4020301@orange.com> <1429771718.22254.32.camel@edumazet-glaptop2.roam.corp.google.com> <6C0D04CF-53AA-4D18-A4E4-B746AF6487C7@gmx.de> <87wq123p5r.fsf@toke.dk> <2288B614-B415-4017-A842-76E8F5DFDE4C@gmx.de> <553B06CE.1050209@superduper.net> <14ceed3c818.27f7.e972a4f4d859b00521b2b659602cb2f9@superduper.net> <0C930D43-A05B-48E2-BC01-792CAA72CAD1@gmx.de> <5549A1B8.50005@superduper.net> <87oalxjv2g.fsf@alrua-karlstad.karlstad.toke.dk> To: =?windows-1252?Q?Toke_H=F8iland-J=F8rgensen?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:aQJ3yQpqmelWJ/lL0Pe5KMQkEyc9sdvMzIiu06P9x5VdGHljMVB 1SYD0iX0PkMBq2lAoTWEuFLkkEwJNtJf2/odAUS/cL98P/cZD+H4P7Tt5qpa3zq28ztQj63 9ei7wZlm5/FKBMxDb194IHbJjnIH/Bo1pY9uXTgmZBFsM4e71D5vzTzD/R8yWfxp43+rbEz 6Sb254Ny834f1bP9Wi7/A== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1; Cc: Jonathan Morton , bloat Subject: Re: [Bloat] DSLReports Speed Test has latency measurement built-in X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 07:34:17 -0000 Hi Toke, On May 6, 2015, at 22:43 , Toke H=F8iland-J=F8rgensen = wrote: > Jonathan Morton writes: >=20 >> Compare these totals to twice the ITU benchmark figures, rate >> accordingly, and plot on a map. >=20 > A nice way of visualising this can be 'radius of reach within n > milliseconds'. Or, 'number of people reachable within n ms'. This = paper > uses that (or something very similar) to visualise the benefits of > speed-of-light internet: > http://web.engr.illinois.edu/~singla2/papers/hotnets14.pdf >=20 > That same paper uses 30 ms as an 'instant response' number, btw, = citing > this: = http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness-temporal/empirical-finding= s.html This number does not mean what the authors of that paper think = it does (assuming that my interpretation is correct)=85 they at least = should have read their reference 7 in full. Yes 30ms will count as = instantaneous, but it s far from the upper threshold. To illustrate, the reference basically shows that if two successive = events are spaced further than 30 ms apart they will be (most likely) = interpreted as two distinct events instead of one event with a temporal = extent. To relate to networks, if one would send successive frames of = video without buffering these 30ms would be the time permissible for = transmission and presentation of successive frames without people = perceiving glitches or a slide show (you would think, but motion = perception would still be of odd movement).=20 BUT if we think about the related phenomenon of flicker-fusion = frequency it becomes clear that this might well depend on the actual = stimuli and the surround luminosity. I think no one is proposing to = under buffer so severely that gaps >=3D 30ms occur, so this number seems = not too relevant in my eyes.=20 I think the more relevant question is what delay between an = action and the response will people tolerate and find acceptable. I = guess I should do a little literature research. Best Regards Sebastian >=20 > -Toke > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat