* [Bloat] vyatta in AT&T 5G gear @ 2018-10-16 3:07 Dave Taht 2018-10-16 9:31 ` Mikael Abrahamsson 0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Dave Taht @ 2018-10-16 3:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bloat Vyos (the open source fork of vyatta) was one of the first to add fq_codel support... I wonder.... http://linuxgizmos.com/att-releases-white-box-spec-for-its-linux-based-5g-routers/ -- Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-205-9740 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] vyatta in AT&T 5G gear 2018-10-16 3:07 [Bloat] vyatta in AT&T 5G gear Dave Taht @ 2018-10-16 9:31 ` Mikael Abrahamsson 2018-10-16 9:59 ` Stefan Alfredsson 0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Mikael Abrahamsson @ 2018-10-16 9:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dave Taht; +Cc: bloat On Mon, 15 Oct 2018, Dave Taht wrote: > Vyos (the open source fork of vyatta) was one of the first to add > fq_codel support... I wonder.... > > http://linuxgizmos.com/att-releases-white-box-spec-for-its-linux-based-5g-routers/ Isn't Vyos just running the Linux kernel for forwarding? So they received fq_codel for free when the Linux kernel got support for it? They just had to make it configurable? -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] vyatta in AT&T 5G gear 2018-10-16 9:31 ` Mikael Abrahamsson @ 2018-10-16 9:59 ` Stefan Alfredsson 2018-10-16 15:06 ` Stephen Hemminger 0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Stefan Alfredsson @ 2018-10-16 9:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bloat [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1101 bytes --] On 2018-10-16 11:31, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > On Mon, 15 Oct 2018, Dave Taht wrote: > >> Vyos (the open source fork of vyatta) was one of the first to add >> fq_codel support... I wonder.... >> >> http://linuxgizmos.com/att-releases-white-box-spec-for-its-linux-based-5g-routers/ >> > > Isn't Vyos just running the Linux kernel for forwarding? So they > received fq_codel for free when the Linux kernel got support for it? > They just had to make it configurable? > Yes, according to this blog post, http://www.five-ten-sg.com/mapper/blog/Bufferbloat%20solved%20with%20Vyos "Now that Vyos "helium" is available with a Linux 3.13 kernel, the fq_codel queueing discipline can be used to solve many bufferbloat issues. The nightly "lithium" builds contain my patches that allow fq_codel to be used via the native Vyos configuration system." Anyway it's nice to see the Vyatta heritage living on in it's various forms (the AT&T "production hardened" Vyatta, to the Ubiquity EdgeMax and some UniFi devices, to the VyOS open version and now the future plans with dNOS -> DANOS. /Stefan [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2475 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] vyatta in AT&T 5G gear 2018-10-16 9:59 ` Stefan Alfredsson @ 2018-10-16 15:06 ` Stephen Hemminger 2018-10-16 15:14 ` Dave Taht 2018-10-21 9:36 ` Jonas Mårtensson 0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Stephen Hemminger @ 2018-10-16 15:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Alfredsson; +Cc: bloat On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 11:59:18 +0200 Stefan Alfredsson <stefan.alfredsson@kau.se> wrote: > On 2018-10-16 11:31, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > > > On Mon, 15 Oct 2018, Dave Taht wrote: > > > >> Vyos (the open source fork of vyatta) was one of the first to add > >> fq_codel support... I wonder.... > >> > >> http://linuxgizmos.com/att-releases-white-box-spec-for-its-linux-based-5g-routers/ > >> > > > > Isn't Vyos just running the Linux kernel for forwarding? So they > > received fq_codel for free when the Linux kernel got support for it? > > They just had to make it configurable? > > > > Yes, according to this blog post, > http://www.five-ten-sg.com/mapper/blog/Bufferbloat%20solved%20with%20Vyos > > "Now that Vyos "helium" is available with a Linux 3.13 kernel, the > fq_codel queueing discipline can be used to solve many bufferbloat > issues. The nightly "lithium" builds contain my patches that allow > fq_codel to be used via the native Vyos configuration system." > > Anyway it's nice to see the Vyatta heritage living on in it's various > forms (the AT&T "production hardened" Vyatta, to the Ubiquity EdgeMax > and some UniFi devices, to the VyOS open version and now the future > plans with dNOS -> DANOS. > > /Stefan > > > There are two basic components to network OS, the control plane and the data plane. VyOs has the old V1 which is filesystem based control plane and kernel dataplane. DaNoS has yang/netconf database based control plane (in Go) and DPDK (or switch offload?) based dataplane. Ubiquity redid the control plane as well, and uses their own hardware for dataplane. So more of "my grandfather's ax"... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] vyatta in AT&T 5G gear 2018-10-16 15:06 ` Stephen Hemminger @ 2018-10-16 15:14 ` Dave Taht 2018-10-16 15:26 ` Jan Ceuleers 2018-10-16 15:57 ` Stephen Hemminger 2018-10-21 9:36 ` Jonas Mårtensson 1 sibling, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Dave Taht @ 2018-10-16 15:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stephen Hemminger; +Cc: Stefan Alfredsson, bloat On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 8:06 AM Stephen Hemminger <stephen@networkplumber.org> wrote: > > On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 11:59:18 +0200 > Stefan Alfredsson <stefan.alfredsson@kau.se> wrote: > > > On 2018-10-16 11:31, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 15 Oct 2018, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > > >> Vyos (the open source fork of vyatta) was one of the first to add > > >> fq_codel support... I wonder.... > > >> > > >> http://linuxgizmos.com/att-releases-white-box-spec-for-its-linux-based-5g-routers/ > > >> > > > > > > Isn't Vyos just running the Linux kernel for forwarding? So they > > > received fq_codel for free when the Linux kernel got support for it? > > > They just had to make it configurable? > > > > > > > Yes, according to this blog post, > > http://www.five-ten-sg.com/mapper/blog/Bufferbloat%20solved%20with%20Vyos > > > > "Now that Vyos "helium" is available with a Linux 3.13 kernel, the > > fq_codel queueing discipline can be used to solve many bufferbloat > > issues. The nightly "lithium" builds contain my patches that allow > > fq_codel to be used via the native Vyos configuration system." > > > > Anyway it's nice to see the Vyatta heritage living on in it's various > > forms (the AT&T "production hardened" Vyatta, to the Ubiquity EdgeMax > > and some UniFi devices, to the VyOS open version and now the future > > plans with dNOS -> DANOS. > > > > /Stefan > > > > > > > > There are two basic components to network OS, the control plane and the > data plane. VyOs has the old V1 which is filesystem based control plane > and kernel dataplane. DaNoS has yang/netconf database based control plane > (in Go) and DPDK (or switch offload?) based dataplane. Ubiquity redid > the control plane as well, and uses their own hardware for dataplane. > > So more of "my grandfather's ax"... so in other words we should have done a dpdk version long ago. And even then, this white box brags of the "deep buffering" in the switch chip. ... and I have an initial report of 2 seconds of buffering on one of the first 5G devices. Sigh. And what was so wrong with the "everything as a file" model?? double sigh. > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat -- Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-205-9740 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] vyatta in AT&T 5G gear 2018-10-16 15:14 ` Dave Taht @ 2018-10-16 15:26 ` Jan Ceuleers 2018-10-17 0:46 ` Dave Taht 2018-10-16 15:57 ` Stephen Hemminger 1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Jan Ceuleers @ 2018-10-16 15:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bloat On 16/10/2018 17:14, Dave Taht wrote: > And what was so wrong with the "everything as a file" model?? On a single box - not a lot. On a 5G network, which might consist of 10^3 - 10^5 boxes you need aggregation and abstraction layers. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] vyatta in AT&T 5G gear 2018-10-16 15:26 ` Jan Ceuleers @ 2018-10-17 0:46 ` Dave Taht 2018-10-18 19:45 ` Stephen Hemminger 0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Dave Taht @ 2018-10-17 0:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jan Ceuleers; +Cc: bloat Jan Ceuleers <jan.ceuleers@gmail.com> writes: > On 16/10/2018 17:14, Dave Taht wrote: >> And what was so wrong with the "everything as a file" model?? > > On a single box - not a lot. > > On a 5G network, which might consist of 10^3 - 10^5 boxes you need > aggregation and abstraction layers. I was mostly just venting. Still... I'd hoped that the next generation fios gear would get bufferbloat right... and with all the 5G boasting about the 1ms mac, that they'd get queuing delay below 20ms also. I was also hoping the DOCSIS 3.1 line cards would get it right... It has been a disappointing day. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] vyatta in AT&T 5G gear 2018-10-17 0:46 ` Dave Taht @ 2018-10-18 19:45 ` Stephen Hemminger 0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Stephen Hemminger @ 2018-10-18 19:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dave Taht; +Cc: Jan Ceuleers, bloat On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 17:46:44 -0700 Dave Taht <dave@taht.net> wrote: > Jan Ceuleers <jan.ceuleers@gmail.com> writes: > > > On 16/10/2018 17:14, Dave Taht wrote: > >> And what was so wrong with the "everything as a file" model?? > > > > On a single box - not a lot. > > > > On a 5G network, which might consist of 10^3 - 10^5 boxes you need > > aggregation and abstraction layers. > > I was mostly just venting. Still... I'd hoped that the next generation > fios gear would get bufferbloat right... and with all the 5G boasting > about the 1ms mac, that they'd get queuing delay below 20ms also. > > I was also hoping the DOCSIS 3.1 line cards would get it right... > > It has been a disappointing day. At scale, you need a usable programming model; on box CLI or files don't work well. Netconf/yang was built for that. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] vyatta in AT&T 5G gear 2018-10-16 15:14 ` Dave Taht 2018-10-16 15:26 ` Jan Ceuleers @ 2018-10-16 15:57 ` Stephen Hemminger 1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Stephen Hemminger @ 2018-10-16 15:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dave Taht; +Cc: Stefan Alfredsson, bloat On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 08:14:36 -0700 Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 8:06 AM Stephen Hemminger > <stephen@networkplumber.org> wrote: > > > > On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 11:59:18 +0200 > > Stefan Alfredsson <stefan.alfredsson@kau.se> wrote: > > > > > On 2018-10-16 11:31, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > > > > > > > On Mon, 15 Oct 2018, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > > > > >> Vyos (the open source fork of vyatta) was one of the first to add > > > >> fq_codel support... I wonder.... > > > >> > > > >> http://linuxgizmos.com/att-releases-white-box-spec-for-its-linux-based-5g-routers/ > > > >> > > > > > > > > Isn't Vyos just running the Linux kernel for forwarding? So they > > > > received fq_codel for free when the Linux kernel got support for it? > > > > They just had to make it configurable? > > > > > > > > > > Yes, according to this blog post, > > > http://www.five-ten-sg.com/mapper/blog/Bufferbloat%20solved%20with%20Vyos > > > > > > "Now that Vyos "helium" is available with a Linux 3.13 kernel, the > > > fq_codel queueing discipline can be used to solve many bufferbloat > > > issues. The nightly "lithium" builds contain my patches that allow > > > fq_codel to be used via the native Vyos configuration system." > > > > > > Anyway it's nice to see the Vyatta heritage living on in it's various > > > forms (the AT&T "production hardened" Vyatta, to the Ubiquity EdgeMax > > > and some UniFi devices, to the VyOS open version and now the future > > > plans with dNOS -> DANOS. > > > > > > /Stefan > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are two basic components to network OS, the control plane and the > > data plane. VyOs has the old V1 which is filesystem based control plane > > and kernel dataplane. DaNoS has yang/netconf database based control plane > > (in Go) and DPDK (or switch offload?) based dataplane. Ubiquity redid > > the control plane as well, and uses their own hardware for dataplane. > > > > So more of "my grandfather's ax"... > > so in other words we should have done a dpdk version long ago. And even then, > this white box brags of the "deep buffering" in the switch chip. > > ... and I have an initial report of 2 seconds of buffering on one of > the first 5G devices. > > Sigh. > > And what was so wrong with the "everything as a file" model?? Two things were an issue. At scale, the filesystem was a bottleneck and it would have been harder to implement netconf/yang model as required by the big boy market. Filesystem works as toy. (see plan 9) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] vyatta in AT&T 5G gear 2018-10-16 15:06 ` Stephen Hemminger 2018-10-16 15:14 ` Dave Taht @ 2018-10-21 9:36 ` Jonas Mårtensson 2018-10-22 16:42 ` Stephen Hemminger 1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Jonas Mårtensson @ 2018-10-21 9:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: stephen; +Cc: stefan.alfredsson, bloat [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 297 bytes --] Hi Stephen, DaNoS has yang/netconf database based control plane > (in Go) and DPDK (or switch offload?) based dataplane. > Do you have more information about DANOS and using Go for the control plane? The AT&T design uses a Broadcom Qumran-AX switching chip for the dataplane so no DPDK. /Jonas [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 575 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] vyatta in AT&T 5G gear 2018-10-21 9:36 ` Jonas Mårtensson @ 2018-10-22 16:42 ` Stephen Hemminger 2018-10-22 17:00 ` Dave Taht 2018-10-23 7:38 ` Jonas Mårtensson 0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Stephen Hemminger @ 2018-10-22 16:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jonas Mårtensson; +Cc: stefan.alfredsson, bloat On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 11:36:43 +0200 Jonas Mårtensson <martensson.jonas@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Stephen, > > DaNoS has yang/netconf database based control plane > > (in Go) and DPDK (or switch offload?) based dataplane. > > > > Do you have more information about DANOS and using Go for the control > plane? The AT&T design uses a Broadcom Qumran-AX switching chip for the > dataplane so no DPDK. > > /Jonas Linux Foundation announced Danos, but no code is yet available. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] vyatta in AT&T 5G gear 2018-10-22 16:42 ` Stephen Hemminger @ 2018-10-22 17:00 ` Dave Taht 2018-10-22 20:45 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen 2018-10-23 7:38 ` Jonas Mårtensson 1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Dave Taht @ 2018-10-22 17:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stephen Hemminger; +Cc: Jonas Mårtensson, bloat On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 9:42 AM Stephen Hemminger <stephen@networkplumber.org> wrote: > > On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 11:36:43 +0200 > Jonas Mårtensson <martensson.jonas@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Stephen, > > > > DaNoS has yang/netconf database based control plane > > > (in Go) and DPDK (or switch offload?) based dataplane. > > > > > > > Do you have more information about DANOS and using Go for the control > > plane? The AT&T design uses a Broadcom Qumran-AX switching chip for the > > dataplane so no DPDK. > > > > /Jonas > > Linux Foundation announced Danos, but no code is yet available. Not even which license seems to be available. Still... I guess this is going to be "a thing", and we should probably get involved. I'd like to see P4 evolve a bit more "our way". > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat -- Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-205-9740 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] vyatta in AT&T 5G gear 2018-10-22 17:00 ` Dave Taht @ 2018-10-22 20:45 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Toke Høiland-Jørgensen @ 2018-10-22 20:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dave Taht, Stephen Hemminger; +Cc: bloat Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> writes: > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 9:42 AM Stephen Hemminger > <stephen@networkplumber.org> wrote: >> >> On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 11:36:43 +0200 >> Jonas Mårtensson <martensson.jonas@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Hi Stephen, >> > >> > DaNoS has yang/netconf database based control plane >> > > (in Go) and DPDK (or switch offload?) based dataplane. >> > > >> > >> > Do you have more information about DANOS and using Go for the control >> > plane? The AT&T design uses a Broadcom Qumran-AX switching chip for the >> > dataplane so no DPDK. >> > >> > /Jonas >> >> Linux Foundation announced Danos, but no code is yet available. > > Not even which license seems to be available. > > Still... I guess this is going to be "a thing", and we should probably > get involved. > > I'd like to see P4 evolve a bit more "our way". There's a fairly new traffic management working group in the P4 org. They're trying to define an extension to the P4 language to describe a programmable interface to packet scheduling and traffic shaping. You have to be a member of the P4 consortium to take part (most of the lists on http://lists.p4.org/mailman/listinfo are members only). It's free for individuals, though; but you do have to sign a CLA. See https://p4.org/join/ -Toke ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] vyatta in AT&T 5G gear 2018-10-22 16:42 ` Stephen Hemminger 2018-10-22 17:00 ` Dave Taht @ 2018-10-23 7:38 ` Jonas Mårtensson 2018-10-23 15:27 ` Stephen Hemminger 1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Jonas Mårtensson @ 2018-10-23 7:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: stephen; +Cc: Stefan A, bloat [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 223 bytes --] > > Linux Foundation announced Danos, but no code is yet available. > Yeah I know, but you seemed to know it is written in Go, which I can't find any information about, so I thought maybe you had more information. /Jonas [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 443 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] vyatta in AT&T 5G gear 2018-10-23 7:38 ` Jonas Mårtensson @ 2018-10-23 15:27 ` Stephen Hemminger 0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Stephen Hemminger @ 2018-10-23 15:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jonas Mårtensson; +Cc: Stefan A, bloat On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 09:38:10 +0200 Jonas Mårtensson <martensson.jonas@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Linux Foundation announced Danos, but no code is yet available. > > > > Yeah I know, but you seemed to know it is written in Go, which I can't find > any information about, so I thought maybe you had more information. > > /Jonas I used to work at Brocade. Didn't work directly on the control handler but did write lots of yang models for it. Yes it was in Go at the time. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2018-10-23 15:27 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 15+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2018-10-16 3:07 [Bloat] vyatta in AT&T 5G gear Dave Taht 2018-10-16 9:31 ` Mikael Abrahamsson 2018-10-16 9:59 ` Stefan Alfredsson 2018-10-16 15:06 ` Stephen Hemminger 2018-10-16 15:14 ` Dave Taht 2018-10-16 15:26 ` Jan Ceuleers 2018-10-17 0:46 ` Dave Taht 2018-10-18 19:45 ` Stephen Hemminger 2018-10-16 15:57 ` Stephen Hemminger 2018-10-21 9:36 ` Jonas Mårtensson 2018-10-22 16:42 ` Stephen Hemminger 2018-10-22 17:00 ` Dave Taht 2018-10-22 20:45 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen 2018-10-23 7:38 ` Jonas Mårtensson 2018-10-23 15:27 ` Stephen Hemminger
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