From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pg1-x52c.google.com (mail-pg1-x52c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B63F03CB3F for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 20:40:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52c.google.com with SMTP id x15so10188920pgg.8 for ; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 17:40:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=networkplumber-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HYRfw5diW/SCrN1n82vmHvrSyucQaoRvCzio/1W1m4M=; b=JAepTref2QXdM1DZXM4G1EHOlb7CYoPnaGsqizCYnOlOcKKZPGSjPXmvcQoxJAhRDD JagQXhTf8kkFMhkEFzfyI5vcgPtZfFllyeAnr8iyAmCfHv0h2chZgTZ2Dw08k3ILhI8G grX8rdM4hryZwzeejwsiqs83wLIx3oelEd+j7mirnqyyZSVYs99UY0DejjaWCJNa2OQe e5ZMPhDnOxuXWin5smZV1DrD2JwRvfE5Vfc6wigQp2staT9A9slfM57iBqK3qPGT78Pm yN0evB/VmphfQPJG09q8/Z1WvuTmcV8+A5M3ARG8EYdZlSMEqOXF+8Ds07nN/tOayajI nLRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HYRfw5diW/SCrN1n82vmHvrSyucQaoRvCzio/1W1m4M=; b=s8mZOfq+paQ32iDnGpa1tPUZP5kehRyf4w0vDDzp4YqBFTY7YmdfF+1220ZwD2uMAJ BoKFy6j5QCjGql7D/DRdg7d6w19c6oboUR0iUOJUWdc8CiKxOEcL9yg2IluUDATApWHm O1PHZ5gvTVWvYUh9nQNy8QQrTzHOCSOcKSTzODlIMsGTbFZtfCHaadx40i1TnVAvMizh 7WwYv3k182rGoChwJ6aMEwp1gQqo1Dz0LVUsoK7m6lbjq/wLiCgB6tZMEbodWL5CdSmR kA6hr4pzaOuQ2pIxQ62sdWurpzw/MdK3NIu0bE09V0teSsVE4FshA8PhLN7Q9N6+Ypup W2ag== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXlypsyHMh1S+2Tn2PbFbMs2wyVWmixYlyMjnAmhrlceaWhjsWC HGPg4FR+kccuJVxbdnsn4jpTJw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqws9YTvsWMWrgftB7q4Zv0AZkCyVGGGy9kj48hAA4BeuIpG6EKKfedDlmTJL6yPDllNo3Htuw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:c006:: with SMTP id h6mr32495828pgg.290.1567557648656; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 17:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.lan (204-195-22-127.wavecable.com. [204.195.22.127]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p20sm20990708pgi.81.2019.09.03.17.40.48 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 03 Sep 2019 17:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 17:40:46 -0700 From: Stephen Hemminger To: Dave Taht Cc: Rich Brown , bloat Message-ID: <20190903174046.68f24735@hermes.lan> In-Reply-To: References: <614481A6-1C07-4C6A-AB86-10A6DEF1B5D2@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Bloat] Rigorous Coffee Shop Bloat Testing X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2019 00:40:49 -0000 On Tue, 3 Sep 2019 10:29:51 -0700 Dave Taht wrote: > On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 8:57 AM Rich Brown wrote: > > > > > On Sep 3, 2019, at 11:22 AM, bloat-request@lists.bufferbloat.net wrote: > > > > > > The coffee shop tests were fun, but I(we) needed more rigor when doing > > > them. What I'd typically do is go in, > > > get on the wifi, start 6 minutes worth of tests, get in line, get > > > coffee... > > > > OK. I'll bite. What "six minutes of tests" do you queue up? What do you record? > > Still working out what the "right thing" would be. The ecn syn failure > thing was new (didn't know OSX had that stat), getting some caps, > seeing if ipv6 was available, all seem like good ideas, in addition to > bloat protection. > > the most recent script was this - (the data is in my blog-cerowrt repo > on github, also). > > We could turn this into a batch file and try to get more rigorous > about also getting a packet cap. > > Is there a decent android or IOS tool yet? > > #!/bin/sh > > T="Los_Gatos_Starbucks" > F="flent -x -H flent-fremont.bufferbloat.net -t $T" > > $F --te=download_streams=4 tcp_ndown > $F --te=upload_streams=4 --socket-stats tcp_nup > # $F --te=upload_streams=4 tcp_2up_square # not useful enough > $F rrul > $F rrul_be > > > > And how do you broach the subject with the owner? Something like... > > Carefully. The owners are always ready to take a complement or > complaint, and, so long as you catch 'em when > not too busy are usually pretty social in general. > > In many cases they share the wifi with their credit card reader and > when I say that fixing bufferbloat helps, > their eyes light up. That was a specific problem that at least one had > - demonstrable - I saw it take forever > to clear a transaction (and the bloat was 2+ seconds long at the time > - NOT triggered by me) once... he had a synology router, and "applying > QoS" "just worked", and we did other things like reposition the > antenna, also. got me lunch > that did and he punched a whole bunch of holes in my "repeat business" card.... > > However the employees usually lack the router's password and clue. > > IF we were to make this a thing (and it does invoke fond memories of > how we first spread wifi around the bay area > and then the world in the early 2000s - I was part of a group called > thirdbreak that generally lept across the counter to help a lot, back > in the days we were so eager to get out of the office and onto wifi > that we were mapping all the locations available - example: > http://www.wififreespot.com/ca.php from those days...), perhaps carry > a portable printer for the test output, biz cards, and so on for the > no-owner-present case. > > I recently hit on the idea of creating stickers - attached is the one > I'm using on my guitar... > > which is a bit too much over the top, I think, generally. > > but plan to give out 0.0.0.0/8 and 240.0.0.0/4 ones next time. > > They are cheap (I used stickermule) and with a cool logo, folk dig > adorning their laptops with them, in general. Still, > we've never found that logo/slogan for fixing bufferbloat - the word > is too long and too negative, though I thought > the inverted wifi logo we use on the cerowrt site a good start. "Better wifi". > > With more folk gathering data... > > Maybe (for example) we'd play off starbucks vs peets - attached is > starbucks (using google wifi) vs another coffeeshop, coffeecat - sigh. > but weirdly enough starbucks's packet cap - although very close to > what a fq_codel'd trace would look like, doesn't actually seem to be a > fq_codeled trace. Still puzzled, need to go back and try that spot > again. > > And I gotta say, it's *really good* to get out of the lab once in a > while and see people, and sometimes, actually fix something, trying a > different coffee shop every week. > > I guess, in the cases where the coffee doesn't become free, I could > deduct it as a business expense. :) > > > "Uh, I think I know why all those heads are popping up..." OR > > "This is a nice network you have here. It'd be a shame if something happened to it..." OR > > Oh, that's great! Goes with my costume, too. "Hey buddy, got an ipv6 address?" > > > "I know I look like [don't look like] a pointy-headed geek, but there's this thing called bufferbloat..." OR > > "Do you ever get complaints that your wifi is really slow?" > > I might also have an agenda in trying to see how much ipv6 is out > there, and the syn thing is bugging me, too. > So with a more organized set of tests, we could fan out to the coffee > shops of the world and forment another > wifi revolution and turn that world upside down! Who's with me!? There was a recent Wall Street Journal article that faster Internet doesn't mean anything. https://www.wsj.com/graphics/faster-internet-not-worth-it/ I just thought "faster Internet just exposes your existing Bufferbloat"