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[76.14.218.44]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id dw10sm2921244pjb.53.2021.04.05.08.13.57 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 05 Apr 2021 08:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 08:13:55 -0700 From: Stephen Hemminger To: Rich Brown Cc: bloat Message-ID: <20210405081355.14f10a08@hermes.local> In-Reply-To: <9A233C8C-5C48-4483-A087-AA5FE1011388@gmail.com> References: <9A233C8C-5C48-4483-A087-AA5FE1011388@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Bloat] Questions for Bufferbloat Wikipedia article X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2021 15:13:59 -0000 On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 08:46:15 -0400 Rich Brown wrote: > Dave T=C3=A4ht has put me up to revising the current Bufferbloat article = on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bufferbloat) >=20 > Before I get into it, I want to ask real experts for some guidance... Her= e goes: >=20 > 1) What is *our* definition of Bufferbloat? (We invented the term, so I t= hink we get to define it.)=20 >=20 > a) Are we content with the definition from the bufferbloat.net site, "Buf= ferbloat is the undesirable latency that comes from a router or other netwo= rk equipment buffering too much data." (This suggests bufferbloat is latenc= y, and could be measured in seconds/msec.) >=20 > b) Or should we use something like Jim Gettys' definition from the Dark B= uffers article (https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5755608), "Bufferbloat= is the existence of excessively large (bloated) buffers in systems, partic= ularly network communication systems." (This suggests bufferbloat is an unf= ortunate state of nature, measured in units of "unhappiness" :-)=20 >=20 > c) Or some other definition? >=20 > 2) All network equipment can be bloated. I have seen (but not really foll= owed) controversy regarding the amount of buffering needed in the Data Cent= er. Is it worth having the Wikipedia article distinguish between Data Cente= r equipment and CPE/home/last mile equipment? Similarly, is the "bloat cond= ition" and its mitigation qualitatively different between those application= s? Finally, do any of us know how frequently data centers/backbone ISPs exp= erience buffer-induced latencies? What's the magnitude of the impact? >=20 > 3) The Wikipedia article mentions guidance that network gear should accom= modate buffering 250 msec of traffic(!) Is this a real "rule of thumb" or j= ust an often-repeated but unscientific suggestion? Can someone give pointer= s to best practices? >=20 > 4) Meta question: Can anyone offer any advice on making a wholesale chang= e to a Wikipedia article? Before I offer a fork-lift replacement I would a)= solicit advice on the new text from this list, and b) try to make contact = with some of the reviewers and editors who've been maintaining the page to = establish some bona fides and rapport... >=20 > Many thanks! >=20 > Rich I like to think of Bufferbloat as a combination of large buffers and how al= gorithms react to those buffers.