From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pl1-x634.google.com (mail-pl1-x634.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::634]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67DBD3CB38 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 19:53:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-pl1-x634.google.com with SMTP id f6so1125928pln.12 for ; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 16:53:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=networkplumber-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=T1K75m7IGydpciiMMi5kRlhDBeyFs/qMMfCIhc2ysRM=; b=1z9skxe+f1xcrlFyGJ6Q3v9WPJSc13m6Fvu35UUG9S1A88CPC4aOae/xhv2CraasWh /anzWlmeldbcFNEHKModflvp3rZ/l4JbEaG4gRmzsLsnLqYNWCmrnZ8KNZhRPA8O8wZ4 KKAOIYWFoTHilxePknZhtervO3AFefQsTgwGUg5vWWgU3Dq4JJkC1wLFiazboofIvF0Q n/Ez1rR3+VS1Y9zzCQEux0KbwPU0tD9Yu9/XUnCcAvGnQax5GVcPGIyMLsDMR3wduEs+ elOlxDRgPR/H/rAKbMy4cq9iQgYhjULJ9PLkBHWpLFtgt6pE5VmOAqRASY64t5/dEcfa AxvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=T1K75m7IGydpciiMMi5kRlhDBeyFs/qMMfCIhc2ysRM=; b=L3AEq3JTy9RRZe1J5Jx2NQ3lbWRp09esDTyMEselMxWrWY8aC4yaas+ftqqn4gXCa9 1720Fkv6nN3XIZp+EObEUL3vaFXuCm0VaWACSjjtdLTvQFyata0RpVESz9UxLP+zrx+d 8X1kVUtBTpd/fal6HhcPfOKWCDmckYl9JB4RlXT4CuTScCLKtF7osAabnX50jaAeykuQ auFWX2yi+L+icoGO9AXVVdTNIqOLZrHYOq7LsRDVky2xsKowA8v/UHHl0/98OmAunCjy 1bpgUFLs55RUDGo93+l3Qu1+R99B5V9tMTIRqLjrV6Ov/H9QCXNXxLSSH0TD55aRJxT7 KGPw== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXQDRhvKweHcz2bJJ7tpg0cEnvG6K1I2W4oEEbFUh1uJ1r5bs6z W/lHQ+yoauy9y/3QdD/irR3tu9zXwhtLbyPYeLk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set/4U80k80yZx6S85pEUO15IiQRMy7vkaqQ29cEgwvScTx1+BUJznwrLHRThaaOYEO/XLV4L9A== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:dad2:b0:199:10d2:b9d5 with SMTP id q18-20020a170902dad200b0019910d2b9d5mr10227723plx.1.1675904001176; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 16:53:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.local (204-195-120-218.wavecable.com. [204.195.120.218]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c2-20020a170902d90200b001991f3d85acsm54631plz.299.2023.02.08.16.53.20 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 08 Feb 2023 16:53:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2023 16:53:19 -0800 From: Stephen Hemminger To: Dave Taht via Bloat Cc: Dave Taht , "Luis A. Cornejo" , libreqos Message-ID: <20230208165319.583064e7@hermes.local> In-Reply-To: References: <49312101.15152.0@wordpress.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Bloat] Fwd: [New post] How Good is FWA Wireless? X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2023 00:53:22 -0000 On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 16:43:59 -0800 Dave Taht via Bloat wrote: > On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 2:41 PM Luis A. Cornejo wrote: > > > > As a former T-mobile HSI customer, I can attest the horrible queue management. The deprioritization was so bad that it became basically unusable, even a ping or DNS lookup just lagged. I latched to a tower near the interstate about 2 miles away. I knew when there was an accident at the interstate, my online experience correlated very well. > > I ranted over here about how bad just the depriotization could become, > and also pointed to a flaw, I believe, in how long devices hold onto > packets in that case. I fear that when the network is getting toasty, > and comes back online that there is a thundering herd of devices, > enormous backlogs of stale syns, and so on that hit it, and what is in > place is some sort of timed rate limiter to deal with it, not very > well. It is the only explanation I have for seeing pings come back on > 1s intervals... > > https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/flaws_in_flent/ > I think this is leftover circuit switch telco mindset. Everyone needs/wants/will buy their own slice. It looks like they keep trying and trying to see value added networking. But well-designed best effort is always cheaper, more efficient and overall faster. We heard this story before with MPLS, ATM, etc.