From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail1.bemta37.messagelabs.com (mail1.bemta37.messagelabs.com [85.158.142.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7724E3CB4E; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 20:10:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFupnleJIrShJLcpLzFFi42Jp2blgi+67rxI pBuf/aVr0/7rPatHWOY3N4uf+Z4wWT+8IWPQc6me3mHNoPbPFx8VPmS3WLt7C6sDhsXPWXXaP 7RfPMHl82XuSzaNlzh7mAJYo1sy8pPyKBNaMv8eXsxfc56uYNm0bYwNjA08XIyeHkMBGRok/q yO6GLmA7PmMEl37N7JCOCcZJRrn7mSDcBYzSizcPJUZwmlnlPj54ggjSD+LgKrE30fbWUFsNg EDiYk//7GB2CICshKfr6xnBGlgFnjFJPHg3R2wBmEBQ4nJP2+AFfEKmEtcvPGYEeIQOYmLLV/ YITYcYpGYN38lSxcjB1CRoMTfHcIgNcwCWhI3/r1kAgkzC0hLLP/HARLmFAiUaNh5nWkCo+As hIZZSBpmITQsYGRexWhWnFpUllqka6KXVJSZnlGSm5iZo5dYpZuol1qqm5dfVJKha6iXWF6sl 1pcrFdcmZuck6KXl1qyiREYNynFCWk7GFv7/uodYpTkYFIS5fU2l0gR4kvKT6nMSCzOiC8qzU ktPsQow8GhJMF79A1QTrAoNT21Ii0zBxjDMGkJDh4lEd63n4HSvMUFibnFmekQqVOMuhzfNp7 cyyzEkpeflyolzuvxEahIAKQoozQPbgQsnVxilJUS5mVkYGAQ4ilILcrNLEGVf8UozsGoJMzb +QloCk9mXgncpldARzABHRE3A+yIkkSElFQD0+GYh14c/iFfspLeHUp99n3ReY7U4JUX/LvMu iRvyypXGQY4O12W3rGnylgudDFDkH/Ay+MCJyzOGa2Jl7Msbp34d2LTpldbH60+KXzz9o6+YI b3V9rZPm/lFYmX3PKgvXCjhuuO+wy7lfO4vBfMzlTdvvTxkbVb6+9rpG2Ov7P+odF6OfOEmD8 6W3oP+8suk65vu/jh5rLmFm8Xvjua7g1s/yer3Vb7wCV77+GJ1dNOPTX/yXu4eadgh/T2ou/J L0zDrC4/+i2ZZDDvQsWZt7YPMo73aJglbFVePt/HaV3iLJX1QvzSa8u3Nmus3lKirb+iYEN+9 tyGtrSw35VqPtY8j5Q/WCl6uf87bq36S4mlOCPRUIu5qDgRAD5/aaaiAwAA X-Env-Sender: brandon@rd.bbc.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-14.tower-722.messagelabs.com!1679357422!68323!1 X-Originating-IP: [132.185.160.180] X-SYMC-ESS-Client-Auth: outbound-route-from=pass X-StarScan-Received: X-StarScan-Version: 9.104.1; banners=-,-,- X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 4161 invoked from network); 21 Mar 2023 00:10:22 -0000 Received: from mailout1.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk (HELO mailout1.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk) (132.185.160.180) by server-14.tower-722.messagelabs.com with ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 encrypted SMTP; 21 Mar 2023 00:10:22 -0000 Received: from gateb.lh.bbc.co.uk (gateb.kw.bbc.co.uk [132.185.132.11]) by mailout1.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 32L0AL7R024936; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 00:10:22 GMT Received: from mailhub1.rd.bbc.co.uk ([172.29.120.129]) by gateb.lh.bbc.co.uk (8.15.1+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id 32L0ALZe029300; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 00:10:21 GMT Received: from sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk ([172.29.120.68]:48997) by mailhub1.rd.bbc.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pePa1-0001qQ-GK; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 00:10:21 +0000 Received: from sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk (8.13.8+Sun/8.12.2) with ESMTP id 32L0ALgM004987; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 00:10:21 GMT Received: (from brandon@localhost) by sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk (8.13.8+Sun/8.12.2/Submit) id 32L0ALrp004986; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 00:10:21 GMT Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 00:10:21 +0000 From: Brandon Butterworth To: dan Cc: Frantisek Borsik , Dave Taht via Starlink , Michael Richardson , libreqos , Rpm , rjmcmahon , bloat , brandon@rd.bbc.co.uk Message-ID: <20230321001019.GA4531@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> Reply-To: brandon@rd.bbc.co.uk References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <005d1e7e3e1d19bce308436e46a3ec5e@rjmcmahon.com> <569691b3e7dfc57bbf98c4fc168fc6cf@rjmcmahon.com> <2885829.1679221616@dyas> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 20:43:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] On FiWi X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 00:10:26 -0000 On Mon Mar 20, 2023 at 03:28:57PM -0600, dan via Starlink wrote: > I more or less agree with you Frantisek. There are throughput numbers > that are need for current gen and next gen services, but those are often > met with 50-100Mbps plans today that are enough to handle multiple 4K > streams plus browsing and so forth It is for now, question is how busy will it get and will that be before the next upgrade round. This is why there's a push to sell gigabit in the UK. It gives newcomer altnets something the consumers can understand - big number - to market against the incumbents sweatng old assets with incremental upgrades that will become a problem. From my personal point of view (doing active ethernet) it seems pointless making equipment more expensive to enable lower speeds to be sold. > yet no one talks about latency and packet loss and other useful metrics Gamers get it and rate ISPs on it, nobody else cares. Part of the reason for throwing bandwith at the home is to ensure the hard to replace distribution and house drop is never the problem. Backhaul becomes the limit and they can upgrade that more easily when market pressure with speedtests show there is a problem. > We need a marketing/lobby group. Not wispa or other individual industry > groups, but one specifically for *ISPs that will contribute as well as > implement policies and put that out on social media etc etc. i don't know > how we get there without a big player (ie Netflix, hulu..) contributing. Peak time congestion through average stream speed reduction is faily obvious in playback stats. Any large platform has lots of data on which ISPs are performing well. We can share stats with the ISPs and tell A that they are performing worse than B,C,D if there is a problem. I did want to publish it so the public could choose the best but legal were not comfortable with that. brandon