From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from tn-mailgw-01.telenor.no (tn-mailgw-01.telenor.no [153.110.76.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 983923B29D for ; Thu, 27 May 2021 02:32:43 -0400 (EDT) IronPort-SDR: 72SbEyRg2X3B2lWL4DTAebfLBINJzC1vI64pyE2oMIHjCujzppZ2BDMI8xs25IcwigamQ+hal1 +Z6u5nYdpXFcDOHrPGlYXTkmKKNMGQcH/a+tWsbSqWvUCun4i/dRkgfEObS0F7zdY6uAGqSXvG aUCvrOuJxyupOlI9Qc+jwLDHZPokt+eZWooFjs0Ok2dc/CbTOygm+wuKAfm0PDcEK/XjYNIZVz Mbu56mqPwBVkwo/sYbPWMYB6KZvvglPSTYJ71zK8weQExg8DDv1Pe6Ci69e8/uDiby1Gc9dpzr MyA= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.82,334,1613433600"; d="scan'208,217";a="84276744" Received: from tns-sko-24-204.corp.telenor.no ([10.179.59.72]) by tn-mailgw-01.corp.telenor.no with ESMTP; 27 May 2021 06:32:37 +0000 Received: from TNS-SKO-24-213.corp.telenor.no (10.179.59.81) by TNS-SKO-24-204.corp.telenor.no (10.179.59.72) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.18; Thu, 27 May 2021 08:32:35 +0200 Received: from TNS-SKO-24-204.corp.telenor.no (10.179.59.72) by TNS-SKO-24-213.corp.telenor.no (10.179.59.81) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.18; Thu, 27 May 2021 08:32:34 +0200 Received: from outlook.telenor.no (10.179.127.51) by TNS-SKO-24-204.corp.telenor.no (10.179.59.72) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.18 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 27 May 2021 08:32:32 +0200 Received: from pwpvn2209ex001.nxvp.net (10.149.139.134) by pwpvn2209ex004.nxvp.net (10.149.139.137) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2242.10; Thu, 27 May 2021 08:32:33 +0200 Received: from pwpvn2209ex001.nxvp.net ([10.149.139.134]) by pwpvn2209ex001.nxvp.net ([10.149.139.134]) with mapi id 15.01.2242.010; Thu, 27 May 2021 08:32:33 +0200 From: Taraldsen Erik To: Dave Taht CC: Erik Auerswald , bloat Thread-Topic: [Bloat] Educate colleges on tcp vs udp Thread-Index: AQHXUM3oyhlRw6MskkGA72fy99biQarzvuXXgAIylACAAOjS4g== Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 06:32:32 +0000 Message-ID: <2030a752faf6404d889e1c2d2b45c1df@telenor.no> References: <58daea37ad4b4adf9db6a95f1377143e@telenor.no>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: nb-NO, en-US Content-Language: nb-NO X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.149.139.250] x-tm-snts-smtp: 56A013FAA1F67A7B2929DAE4CDCF895082C40625AEF87098D013D830E99400282000:8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2030a752faf6404d889e1c2d2b45c1dftelenorno_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Bloat] Educate colleges on tcp vs udp X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 06:32:43 -0000 --_000_2030a752faf6404d889e1c2d2b45c1dftelenorno_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brilliant demo. :) But I'm afraid the "learn tcp" part works more as a refresher than an intro= duction. Remember this is the first meeting with an ack for most of my co = workers. To get the proper understanding I think the basics must be more h= ammered into them. -Erik ________________________________ Fra: Dave Taht Sendt: onsdag 26. mai 2021 20.09.44 Til: Taraldsen Erik Kopi: Erik Auerswald; bloat Emne: Re: [Bloat] Educate colleges on tcp vs udp I thought I did a good demo of ack behavior in this apnic video... https://blog.apnic.net/2020/01/22/bufferbloat-may-be-solved-but-its-not-ove= r-yet/ On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 1:38 AM Taraldsen Erik wrote: > > Not a brilliant idea on my part to send a question to the list just hours= before I go on a multiday trip without email access. So this is a group t= hank you for all the responses - off and on list. I'll need some time to r= eview the response. > > > > -Erik > > ________________________________ > Fra: Erik Auerswald > Sendt: mandag 24. mai 2021 20.51.07 > Til: Taraldsen Erik; bloat > Emne: Re: [Bloat] Educate colleges on tcp vs udp > > Hi Erik, > > On 21.05.21 08:01, Taraldsen Erik wrote: > > I'm getting some traction with my colleges in the Mobile department on = measurements to to say something about user experience. While they are com= ing around to the idea, they have major gaps in tcp/udp/ip understanding. = I don't have the skill or will to try and educate them. > > > > > > Is there good education out there - preferably in the form of an video = - which I can send to my co workers? The part of tcp using ack's is pure m= agic to them. They really struggle to grasp the concept. With so basic la= ck of understanding it is hard to have a meaningful discussion about loss, = latency an buffering. > > You could take a look at: > > "Video Notes: Tanenbaum, Wetherall Computer Networks 5e" > > https://media.pearsoncmg.com/ph/streaming/esm/tanenbaum5e_videonotes/tane= nbaum_videoNotes.html > > Specifically the sections "Transport Layer, Reliable Transport" > and "Congestion Control." > > For reading material I can recommend "The TCP/IP Guide" > http://www.tcpipguide.com/ . > > You can find a curated list of freely available networking > (i.e., packet switching and TCP/IP) textbooks in the section > "Textbooks and Other Books You Should Read" of the "How > Networks Really Work" webinars from Ivan Pepelnjak: > > https://my.ipspace.net/bin/list?id=3DNet101#TEXTBOOK > > > I don't mean to talk them down to much, they are really good with the r= adio part of their job - but the transition into seeing tcp and radio toget= her is very hard on them. > > Packet switching, and the transport services built on top, > e.g., TCP, are different from other information transport > systems. They have evolved over decades and have become > quite complex, with surprising interactions (e.g., bufferbloat). > > IP data over mobile networks is even more complex, and it > differs for the different mobile network generations. > > Thus I do not think one should expect to really understand > it immediately. Jumping right into the middle with TCP ACKs, > used for both reliability and flow control, and as part of > the congestion control scheme used on the Internet, without > looking at the fundamentals first, seems quite hard. > > My advice, if I may, would be to view IP/TCP as something > new to your colleagues. It would seem advisable to me to > start by learning the fundamentals. This would most probably > require quite some time, though. > > After achieving some confidence regarding the fundamentals, > I recommend taking a look at the four links from: > https://www.unix-ag.uni-kl.de/~auerswal/networkers_essential_reading/ > (especially the paper "End-to-End Arguments in System Design" > http://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/endtoend/endtoend.pdf). > > HTH, > Erik > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat -- Latest Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/ Dave T=E4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC --_000_2030a752faf6404d889e1c2d2b45c1dftelenorno_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Brilliant demo.  :)


But I'm afraid the "learn tcp" part works more as a refresher = than an introduction.  Remember this is the first meeting with an ack = for most of my co workers.  To get the proper understanding I think th= e basics must be more hammered into them.


-Erik

Fra: Dave Taht <dave.t= aht@gmail.com>
Sendt: onsdag 26. mai 2021 20.09.44
Til: Taraldsen Erik
Kopi: Erik Auerswald; bloat
Emne: Re: [Bloat] Educate colleges on tcp vs udp
 
I thought I did a good demo of ack behavior in thi= s apnic video...

https://blog.apnic.net/2020/01/22/bufferbloat-may-be-sol= ved-but-its-not-over-yet/

On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 1:38 AM Taraldsen Erik
<erik.taraldsen@telenor.no> wrote:
>
> Not a brilliant idea on my part to send a question to the list just ho= urs before I go on a multiday trip without email access.  So this is a= group thank you for all the responses - off and on list.  I'll need s= ome time to review the response.
>
>
>
> -Erik
>
> ________________________________
> Fra: Erik Auerswald <auerswal@unix-ag.uni-kl.de>
> Sendt: mandag 24. mai 2021 20.51.07
> Til: Taraldsen Erik; bloat
> Emne: Re: [Bloat] Educate colleges on tcp vs udp
>
> Hi Erik,
>
> On 21.05.21 08:01, Taraldsen Erik wrote:
> > I'm getting some traction with my colleges in the Mobile departme= nt on measurements to to say something about user experience.  While t= hey are coming around to the idea, they have major gaps in tcp/udp/ip under= standing.  I don't have the skill or will to try and educate them.
> >
> >
> > Is there good education out there - preferably in the form of an = video - which I can send to my co workers?  The part of tcp using ack'= s is pure magic to them.  They really struggle to grasp the concept.&n= bsp; With so basic lack of understanding it is hard to have a meaningful discussion about loss, latency an buffering.
>
> You could take a look at:
>
> "Video Notes: Tanenbaum, Wetherall Computer Networks 5e"
>
> https://media.pearsoncmg.com/ph/streaming/esm/tanenbaum5e_videonotes/tanenb= aum_videoNotes.html
>
> Specifically the sections "Transport Layer, Reliable Transport&qu= ot;
> and "Congestion Control."
>
> For reading material I can recommend "The TCP/IP Guide"
> http://www.tcpipguide.com/ = .
>
> You can find a curated list of freely available networking
> (i.e., packet switching and TCP/IP) textbooks in the section
> "Textbooks and Other Books You Should Read" of the "How=
> Networks Really Work" webinars from Ivan Pepelnjak:
>
> https= ://my.ipspace.net/bin/list?id=3DNet101#TEXTBOOK
>
> > I don't mean to talk them down to much, they are really good with= the radio part of their job - but the transition into seeing tcp and radio= together is very hard on them.
>
> Packet switching, and the transport services built on top,
> e.g., TCP, are different from other information transport
> systems.  They have evolved over decades and have become
> quite complex, with surprising interactions (e.g., bufferbloat).
>
> IP data over mobile networks is even more complex, and it
> differs for the different mobile network generations.
>
> Thus I do not think one should expect to really understand
> it immediately.  Jumping right into the middle with TCP ACKs,
> used for both reliability and flow control, and as part of
> the congestion control scheme used on the Internet, without
> looking at the fundamentals first, seems quite hard.
>
> My advice, if I may, would be to view IP/TCP as something
> new to your colleagues.  It would seem advisable to me to
> start by learning the fundamentals.  This would most probably
> require quite some time, though.
>
> After achieving some confidence regarding the fundamentals,
> I recommend taking a look at the four links from:
> https://www.unix-ag.uni-kl.de/~auerswal/networkers_essential_reading/ > (especially the paper "End-to-End Arguments in System Design"= ;
> http://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/endtoend/endtoend.pdf).
>
> HTH,
> Erik
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists= .bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat



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Dave T=E4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC
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