To speak to the original question, I'd say bufferbloat * is undesirable latency * was discovered when adding buffers counter-intuitively /slowed /packet flow. That's so as to catch the reader's attention and immediately cast light on the (memorable but mysterious) name. --dave On 2021-04-05 11:24 a.m., David Lang wrote: > On Mon, 5 Apr 2021, Stephen Hemminger wrote: > >> On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 08:46:15 -0400 >> Rich Brown wrote: >> >>> Dave Täht has put me up to revising the current Bufferbloat article >>> on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bufferbloat) >>> >>> Before I get into it, I want to ask real experts for some >>> guidance... Here goes: >>> >>> 1) What is *our* definition of Bufferbloat? (We invented the term, >>> so I think we get to define it.) >>> a) Are we content with the definition from the bufferbloat.net site, >>> "Bufferbloat is the undesirable latency that comes from a router or >>> other network equipment buffering too much data." (This suggests >>> bufferbloat is latency, and could be measured in seconds/msec.) >>> >>> b) Or should we use something like Jim Gettys' definition from the >>> Dark Buffers article (https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5755608), >>> "Bufferbloat is the existence of excessively large (bloated) buffers >>> in systems, particularly network communication systems." (This >>> suggests bufferbloat is an unfortunate state of nature, measured in >>> units of "unhappiness" :-) >>> c) Or some other definition? >>> >>> 2) All network equipment can be bloated. I have seen (but not really >>> followed) controversy regarding the amount of buffering needed in >>> the Data Center. Is it worth having the Wikipedia article >>> distinguish between Data Center equipment and CPE/home/last mile >>> equipment? Similarly, is the "bloat condition" and its mitigation >>> qualitatively different between those applications? Finally, do any >>> of us know how frequently data centers/backbone ISPs experience >>> buffer-induced latencies? What's the magnitude of the impact? >>> >>> 3) The Wikipedia article mentions guidance that network gear should >>> accommodate buffering 250 msec of traffic(!) Is this a real "rule of >>> thumb" or just an often-repeated but unscientific suggestion? Can >>> someone give pointers to best practices? >>> >>> 4) Meta question: Can anyone offer any advice on making a wholesale >>> change to a Wikipedia article? Before I offer a fork-lift >>> replacement I would a) solicit advice on the new text from this >>> list, and b) try to make contact with some of the reviewers and >>> editors who've been maintaining the page to establish some bona >>> fides and rapport... >>> >>> Many thanks! >>> >>> Rich >> >> I like to think of Bufferbloat as a combination of large buffers and >> how algorithms react to those buffers. > > I think there are two things > > 1. what bufferbloat is > >    bufferbloat is the result of memory getting cheaper faster than > bandwidth increased, combined with throughput benchmarking that > drastically penalized end-to-end retries. > > I think this definition is pretty academic and not something to worry > about using. > > 2. why it's a problem > > the problems show up when the buffer represents too much time worth of > data to transmit (the time between when the last byte in the buffer > gets inserted into the buffer and when it gets transmitted) > > So in a high bandwidth environment (like a datacenter) you can use > much larger buffers than when you are on a low bandwidth line > > David Lang > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain