From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from gateway31.websitewelcome.com (gateway31.websitewelcome.com [192.185.144.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F9443CB37 for ; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 15:18:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cm11.websitewelcome.com (cm11.websitewelcome.com [100.42.49.5]) by gateway31.websitewelcome.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C765F2275D for ; Sun, 9 Aug 2020 14:18:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from box5867.bluehost.com ([162.241.24.113]) by cmsmtp with SMTP id 4qpqkgZcOOIGp4qpqkPyo8; Sun, 09 Aug 2020 14:18:22 -0500 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tomh.org; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=A9eOFg7pDzztNSVAnS7CHNkVeafcD9JiLc5pG1FeeDc=; b=n5hmppL8T1In1YrZq3qIA7RKmt ktG8Gkkm7V8gA36RKltABtBLiIHwPjKxZUzZjtSiQVoJH5fu5//x8yUW2ODTkiWy22OnHUMJ4ca/d aGWECNYhMhpvNZyO3il0v/ttRhUmF/fcGOrUL4VQRFoNxenzVvi6MeBrh3aCA4HI2Cuwu7DNV1Q34 9t4jgLK3VC+FgZNhJ1IdWY25gg1fYQ5eFQVhNHM2RDBDXStda8qmJ9LDf9rIPJLymEQvPh1z1wWS5 usNdO+h6fZC6We1Rm7DscmME0mdSvh/b6XWEeBWquYYRPJQV0WvZViymPZ9tpVohNPLxhFOOteg+U 1OEFTDsA==; Received: from c-73-19-103-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([73.19.103.93]:39184 helo=[192.168.168.110]) by box5867.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1k4qpq-000jtu-FA; Sun, 09 Aug 2020 13:18:22 -0600 To: davecb@spamcop.net, bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net References: From: Tom Henderson Message-ID: <225a9c89-ac76-f21e-1450-5deeb3cd23eb@tomh.org> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 12:18:20 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box5867.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - lists.bufferbloat.net X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - tomh.org X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 73.19.103.93 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1k4qpq-000jtu-FA X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: c-73-19-103-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([192.168.168.110]) [73.19.103.93]:39184 X-Source-Auth: tomhorg X-Email-Count: 2 X-Source-Cap: dG9taG9yZzt0b21ob3JnO2JveDU4NjcuYmx1ZWhvc3QuY29t X-Local-Domain: yes Subject: Re: [Bloat] How about a topical LWN article on demonstrating the real-world goodness of CAKE? X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 19:18:23 -0000 On 8/9/20 11:27 AM, David Collier-Brown wrote: >  I suspect not enough people are aware of the later efforts of the > bufferbloat team, so I'm thinking of one or two articles, starting > with LWN and an audience of aficionados. > > The core community is aware of what we've done, but in my view we > haven't converted "grandma". Grandma, as well as a whole bunch of > ordinary engineers and partners of engineers, are dependent on > debloated performance because they're working at home now, and > competing with granddaughter playing video games while they're trying > to hold a video call. > > Right now, my colleagues at work suffer from more than a second of > bloat-related lag. They therefore tend to speak over each other on > con-calls, apologize, start again and talk over each other, again. > After a little while, the picture becomes a distinctly silly one: a > bunch of grown adults putting their hands up and waving, like little > kids in school. No-one has called out “me, me, teacher” yet, but I > expect it any time. > > I propose we show the results in terms that we can explain to Grandma, > specifically concentrating on functioning VOIP. I just upgraded to > Fedora 31, and the networking is absolutely stock, so I make a perfect > victim/guinea-pig (;-)) > > Who's interested? Are the risks and tradeoffs well enough understood (and visible enough for troubleshooting) to recommend broader deployment? I recently gave openwrt a try on some hardware that I ultimately concluded was insufficient for the job.  Fairly soon after changing out my access point, I started getting complaints of Wi-Fi dropping in my household, especially when someone was trying to videoconference.  I discovered that my AP was spontaneously rebooting, and the box was getting hot. I am also wondering about what features will be lost if/when the device is flashed from the commercial firmware.  Does openwrt have access to all of the available Wi-Fi 11ac rates, and how does rate control compare?  The commercial devices offer proprietary media/device prioritization settings; does CAKE/SQM outperform them?  Many commercial APs or mesh systems have smartphone apps with features like parental controls; that kind of control will be lost.  What about 11ax support? - Tom