From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; dkim=pass header.d=apple.com header.i=@apple.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20180706 header.b=RzYmJGs7; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=apple.com policy.dmarc=reject Received: from ma-mx03.apple.com (ma-mx03.apple.com [17.23.4.21]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28DF416871CB for ; Thu, 17 Sep 2026 20:24:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mr55p01nt-mtap05.apple.com (mr55p01nt-mtap05.ise.apple.com [10.170.185.195]) by st47p01nt-mxp03.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.28.20250821 64bit (built Aug 21 2025)) with ESMTPS id <0TLI0FLPSTTBF000@st47p01nt-mxp03.apple.com> for bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net; Thu, 17 Sep 2026 18:24:50 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1176,Hydra:6.1.134,FMLib:17.12.100.49 definitions=2026-09-17_04,2026-09-16_02,2025-10-01_01 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=cc : content-transfer-encoding : content-type : date : from : in-reply-to : message-id : mime-version : references : subject : to; s=20180706; bh=Et7aemf7lCPBAdFGdqzfoAFQnLg2m4cymHl7LXSo0aE=; b=RzYmJGs7iLrnY4cLgFLFMPtgmoDyxEs00cxBahP3ofQKiY9tlUYloLItvaUxNud+b2x0 wz2zCBYaUOzXg87UfMKPJLlD7q9gqhFWIVK9lIg3TkEttrD0DMT5VaCXIJzFXfB3qb9p EbYT1GdoVxSUU9igV/sh5wHM19sfT2CJRJF7Hmy7kA5Pb2GzBZKG+BYkjFkdkWFFMCO8 8QsShaTN75ykXPwhr7UL/kCFNgrU7m0L/svCDwFRMWq2Mabo7zRM77Eqr2kSgZW2lrdM IQ5CSJ3a9uio46KKgQda88rbiVijSim9HVaGN/Xpef4JV5zhLcpQZIgSc/e/cQyabbIs 7A== Received: from mr55p01nt-mmpp02.apple.com (mr55p01nt-mmpp02.ise.apple.com [10.170.185.213]) by mr55p01nt-mtap05.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.28.20250821 64bit (built Aug 21 2025)) with ESMTPS id <0TLI0JTR3TTDL050@mr55p01nt-mtap05.apple.com>; Thu, 17 Sep 2026 18:24:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from process_milters-daemon.mr55p01nt-mmpp02.apple.com by mr55p01nt-mmpp02.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.28.20260513 64bit (built May 13 2026)) id <0TLI0XG00T6GZB00@mr55p01nt-mmpp02.apple.com>; Thu, 17 Sep 2026 18:24:49 +0000 (GMT) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: cfcc11d596f13f96c533bd56e7b0b20a X-Va-E-CD: ccd588ac6ef838f52cd34577a02293b6 X-Va-R-CD: 2739caf9a37132f2aa8326dcf93a2acb X-Va-ID: d9ca91e8-c021-4b0b-afac-46d780e08cd2 X-Va-CD: 0 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: cfcc11d596f13f96c533bd56e7b0b20a X-V-E-CD: ccd588ac6ef838f52cd34577a02293b6 X-V-R-CD: 2739caf9a37132f2aa8326dcf93a2acb X-V-ID: d01f19b3-1163-4b2e-9c52-9278f88d545c X-V-CD: 0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1176,Hydra:6.1.134,FMLib:17.12.100.49 definitions=2026-09-17_04,2026-09-16_02,2025-10-01_01 Received: from smtpclient.apple ([17.11.162.226]) by mr55p01nt-mmpp02.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.28.20260513 64bit (built May 13 2026)) with ESMTPSA id <0TLI0XY3NTTCAK00@mr55p01nt-mmpp02.apple.com>; Thu, 17 Sep 2026 18:24:49 +0000 (GMT) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81.1.8\)) From: Stuart Cheshire In-reply-to: Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2026 11:24:48 -0700 Cc: Frantisek Borsik , "Mohit P. Tahiliani" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <24DF2C83-5FB2-44FB-B69F-6BDA27F0191C@apple.com> References: To: bloat X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81.1.8) Message-ID-Hash: K2WSILMK6DQOAZAISDGKBH5EBGSTJ6EC X-Message-ID-Hash: K2WSILMK6DQOAZAISDGKBH5EBGSTJ6EC X-MailFrom: cheshire@apple.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Bloat] Re: The hell has frozen: Latency mentioned at APNIC 62, during a keynote! List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > On Sep 10, 2026, at 10:37, Frantisek Borsik = wrote: >=20 > "The scarce resource is not bandwidth, or compute. It is latency." >=20 > = https://conference.apnic.net/62/assets/presentation-files/93297823-389f-4f= f6-ba5f-73cfe12a367b.pdf >=20 > Incredible. Thanks to Mohit for catching this gem. Nice, but I would not express it that way. Calling latency a =E2=80=9Cscarce resource=E2=80=9D sends the wrong = message. It reinforces the incorrect idea that low-latency service is a = rare commodity, in short supply, that can only be provided to the small = privileged minority that can afford it. This is the wrong-headed = thinking behind priorities, traffic classes, DiffServ, etc. People = assume latency, like bandwidth, is a zero-sum game. (=E2=80=9CBetter = latency for me means worse latency for you.=E2=80=9D) The great insight = of L4S is that latency is not a zero-sum game. *All* traffic can receive = low latency, and that benefit is not counterbalanced by some = corresponding degradation elsewhere. L4S with short queues is just = universally better than tail-drop with long queues, and there is no = hidden caveat or disclaimer on that statement. Instead of the word =E2=80=9Cscarce=E2=80=9D I would use =E2=80=9Cimportan= t=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cvaluable=E2=80=9D. It is true that milliseconds are precious -- once wasted you can=E2=80=99t= get them back, but there is no scarcity of them. Stuart Cheshire