From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.de header.i=moeller0@gmx.de header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=s31663417 header.b=rz+Fcvsf; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmx.de policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5B7219A7500; Thu, 05 Nov 2026 10:05:55 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1793869555; x=1794474355; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=HR7AtveLHRt26A4LOiNQhnWpeqxXnY77+QxmMuK9XpY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=rz+Fcvsf6P9QdsVtOBk3KP+CearGd5xP+z6Vzj+QD07wVhXc6edvVnVXBC31fUdE 5r7P3joLbreIYEPuOCaDX6USYypXfdmE2bLlZMpToV1rGdK1BHU1mlUbzloBXsVsH E2ZxhKGrsx1hokuJYdAUcjii4xyfgp/KRAxfXCisPXzjV77vIDQvstGdrdPkJWyg1 seVJHXRIlMbD8kUlLuEf5fRHBarL0Y3wlnwH4/U6XP3jLmnalMKxqenLthl3wUbUo KYjariVqDy4qNBhWObVn5dhfn5kLQSnwNI7xUcvsqJ1fi8Nx3dzIl8I1W+Hihd53J S6wFyuwuUxSJqhVE8Q== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from client.hidden.invalid by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MEV3C-1xItvV0DGc-00511Q; Thu, 05 Nov 2026 10:05:55 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3901.200.71.1.16\)) From: Sebastian Moeller X-Priority: 3 (Normal) In-Reply-To: <1793815066.0251408@apps.rackspace.com> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2026 10:05:43 +0100 Cc: sascha@thexlab.org, =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?utf-8?Q?pects_heard_this_time!?= , Michael Welzl , Frantisek Borsik , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat , Cake List , libreqos , Jeremy Austin via Rpm Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <28F23EBD-C447-4B31-BF97-721571854BCC@gmx.de> References: <409d88430a154642b1183accedfa97709d51d1e1586146c3a922af0a185d72f4@OS5P279M B0502.NORP279.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> <66aec73e-351c-4db3-a63c-a9e69978e16b@thexlab.org> <1BA618A4-B68E-451A-AA58-FABA637DA83E@gmx.de> <1793815066.0251408@apps.rackspace.com> To: "David P. 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AISPYTNSS3LEDWPRYY6OUHQZSFCXJJ3I X-Message-ID-Hash: AISPYTNSS3LEDWPRYY6OUHQZSFCXJJ3I X-MailFrom: moeller0@gmx.de X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Bloat] Re: [Cake] [NNagain] The French have decided to destroy the Internet within their own country by taxing Gigabits (Dr. Peering) List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: David, I feel you are barking up the wrong tree here. > On Nov 4, 2026, at 18:57, David P. Reed wrote: >=20 > Sascha, et al. - > The law is never about "how will we enforce it", because (sarcasm on) = such petty details as enforcement is not germane to Governments' Will to = Control (sarcasm off). > When they try to dream up "technical means" for enforcement, rather = than just putting the law on the books, they may all of a sudden try to = interfere with all kinds of Internet mechanisms. This won't be easy, but = we have the history of Thought Control starting with the early Internet = deployments where the words "breast" and so forth were supposed to be = detected by all Internet routers in all packets. Senator Exon of the US = got some "tech pundits" to say that was possible and easy, and I got = involved politically to suppress the "Exon Box" idea, which was = politically gaining steam, even among "progressives.: > The issue, of course, is that the legislators invent dynamite-scale = enforcement mechanisms that interfere with every damn thing in order to = solve a pretty narrow problem. >=20 > Note that the Post Office in most countries are NOT allowed to inspect = all letters and packages. I would be surprised though, if the postal service did not keep track of = the number of packets and their weight per each other countries, no? > But the fascist instinct exists everywhere, even France. "There oughta = be a law" is what voters first turn to, both on the Left and the RIght - = which is why just saying "The Rule of Law" is not equivalent to = democracy. > If you want to charge a tax on a behavior of a consumer, you = basically need to surveill actual consumption by each individual, which = is not technically feasible. No more than enforcing a law that says you = can't listen to the words of Islam or read Mein Kampf.=20 That is not what that amendment actually proposes... it is really quite = explicit, ingress bytes per ASN aggregated monthly. NOT per individual = end-user, as the tax is not per individual but per ASN (at least that is = the plan, we all agree that this plan is likely going nowhere). >=20 > I don't get really upset about this until the Tax Policy starts to = move to an implementation that destroys our rights to privacy (meaning = the right to be left alone, not the right to keep data secret). All they require is for ISPs to monitor what competent ISPs likely = already monitor for internal reasons anyway, the aggregate ingress data = per ASN... If that would leak, it would be unfortunate for the ISPs as = it might reveal interesting data about that ISP to its competitors, but = for the ISP's endusers that likely would be no privacy issue as they are = not part of the aggregated data That is not ment to mean all is fine with the amendment (and we all seem = to agree it is going nowhere and deservedly so), just that privacy or = censorship in my opinion are not really affected. Regards Sebastian. > On Wednesday, November 4, 2026 12:03, "Sebastian Moeller via Cake" = said: >=20 > > Hi Sascha, > >=20 > > On November 4, 2026 5:20:01 PM GMT+01:00, Sascha Meinrath > > wrote: > > >Hi Sebastian, > > > > > >My point is that if I VPNed to a point outside France, then a = French ISP would > > have no way to know that I've accessed the type of media that should = be taxed. > >=20 > >=20 > > A misunderstanding, the amendment prposes to tax every single bit = independent of > > the source... it makes zero exemptions, not for FOSS, not for non = commercially ial > > entities. Sure the motivation is to tax big tech primarily, but the = current > > (half-baked) legal implementation is not differentiating... > >=20 > >=20 > > > In essence, VPNs (and proxy services) would create extraordinary = problems for > > even instrumenting the proposed taxing regime. > >=20 > > How? Like with a CDN the tax would hit the vpn provider... the ASN = of the source > > IP.... > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > > > > >--Sascha > > > > > >On 11/4/26 10:40 AM, Sebastian Moeller wrote: > > >> Hi Sascha, > > >> > > >> > > >>> On Nov 2, 2026, at 15:30, Sascha Meinrath > > wrote: > > >>> > > >>> I can't wait until the French Parliament learns about VPNs... It > > would be absolutely *wonderful* if all the ISPs passed along the tax = to their > > customers... and then taught all their customers that VPNed traffic = would, for > > obvious reasons, be exempted. > > >> > > >> Not how this is supposed to work: the ISP aggregates its = end-customer > > bound traffic volume by ASN and reports these aggregates quarterly, = the tax office > > sends the ASNs the tax bill. VPN does not really matter, except now = it is the VPN > > provider that is on the hook for the money. The amendment does not = address VPNs > > but for CDNs that are in a similar picckle the idea is that CDN = operators either > > pass on the cost or "eat" it themselves (both half-baked ideas). The = only oddity > > VPNs add is that they typically receive no money from the actual = content > > providers, but the end users. > > >> > > >>> > > >>> I find proposals like this to be absolutely idiotic -- and, they = are > > yet another step in the global data obfuscation arms race. > > >> > > >> Oh, that proposal is pretty half-baked, no arggument there, but I = think > > we differ in which of its half-baked-ness we consider worst ;) > > >> > > >>> > > >>> #encrypteverything > > >> > > >> Well, if you look what this is supposed to operate on encryption = is not > > really an option, as this operates on source and destination IP = addresses, that > > are somewhat prickly to encrypt if you want packets delivered... > > >> > > >>> > > >>> --Sascha > > >>> > > >>> On 11/2/26 6:23 AM, Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain wrote: > > >>>> Hi Michael, > > >>>>> On Nov 2, 2026, at 08:44, Michael Welzl > > wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> The tax is 5 cents per Gigabyte. This is insane. > > >>>> Back of the envelop calculations for video streaming (assuming > > this to be the one category driving most of the sustained capacity = usage): > > >>>> common use seems to be HD streaming (say on average at 5 Mbps), > > with say 2 hours per day, 7 days per week: > > >>>> (5 * 1000^2) * (60 * 60 * 2 * 30) / (8 * 1000^3) =3D 135 GB > > >>>> -> 135 * 0.055 =3D 7.425 Euro/month > > >>>> typical cost for midrange (ad-free) video streaming in france: > > 8-15 Euro > > >>>> depending on the reference contract tier, the tax almost as = large > > as the total revenue, no way this could be priced-in without = significant price > > increases. > > >>>> The proposed tax indeed seems quite steep, however it is capped > > at 15% of revenue in france or 2% of world-wide revenue > > >>>> So that would get this more in like with a 15% tax... on = revenue, > > still nothing to sneeze at, but a far cry from the numbers one gets = when simply > > multiplying... > > >>>> Regards > > >>>> Sebastian > > >>>> P.S.: My take this is half-baked and will not make it through = the > > further legislative process in that form. > > >>>>> It goes against how we agree to use the Internet. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> English version: > > >>>>> "France has recently approved a highly controversial > > "Internet Traffic > > >>>>> Tax" (or Gigabyte Tax) as part of the 2027 budget bill > > amendments. The > > >>>>> new levy targets digital content providers based on the > > volume of data > > >>>>> they transmit to French internet users, which is monitored by > > network > > >>>>> operators and Internet Service Providers (ISPs) heavily > > utilizing > > >>>>> Internet Exchange Points like France-IX." > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Google AI summary: > > >>>>> "Key Metrics & Tax Rates > > >>>>> =E2=80=A2 =E2=82=AC0.055 per gigabyte charged to content > > providers. > > >>>>> =E2=80=A2 Capped at 15% of a provider's French revenue. > > >>>>> =E2=80=A2 Capped at 2% of a provider's global revenue. > > >>>>> =E2=80=A2 Measured directly by French network operators and > > ISPs." > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On 2026-10-31 13:56, Frantisek Borsik wrote: > > >>>>>> Crossposting, because this garbage idea might "inspire" > > more countries > > >>>>>> and > > >>>>>> have a horrible impact also on bufferbloat everywhere. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> *Original post by Dr. Peering:* > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> *"The French have decided to destroy the Internet within > > their own > > >>>>>> country > > >>>>>> by taxing Gigabits. Here=E2=80=99s Octave Klaba's excellent > > analysis [in > > >>>>>> French, > > >>>>>> link below] showing just how insane the finance bill > > actually is. The > > >>>>>> IXP > > >>>>>> taxation amount is, just for starters, ridiculous!"* > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> https://x.com/drpeering/status/2116468659392807 > > >>>>>> > > = > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> *Octave's post:* > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > = https://fr.linkedin.com/posts/octave-klaba-3a0b3632_jai-lu-lamendement-i-1= 358-au-plf-2027-activity-7522219045576888320-uqkw > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> *Copy+paste:* > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> J'ai lu l'amendement I-1358 au PLF 2027, adopt=C3=A9 ce > > vendredi =C3=A0 > > >>>>>> l'Assembl=C3=A9e : > > >>>>>> une taxe de 0,055 =E2=82=AC par Go envoy=C3=A9 vers les > > abonn=C3=A9s des FAI fran=C3=A7ais. Le > > >>>>>> chiffre est abstrait, alors comparons-le. Corrigez-moi si > > vous voyez > > >>>>>> des > > >>>>>> erreurs. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Deux comparaisons et un cas concret : > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> 1. Le transit et le peering. Un port 100 Gbps co=C3=BBte > > environ 6 300 =E2=82=AC par > > >>>>>> mois chez un fournisseur de transit mondial. En > > interconnexion directe > > >>>>>> avec > > >>>>>> un FAI europ=C3=A9en, compter 3 =C3=A0 5 fois plus, > > soit 20 =C3=A0 30 k=E2=82=AC par mois. Sur > > >>>>>> ce > > >>>>>> port (a), la taxe atteint 1,02 M=E2=82=AC par mois, soit > > environ 3400 % =C3=A0 16300 > > >>>>>> % > > >>>>>> du prix d'une interconnexion vers les FAI > > fran=C3=A7ais. On change donc > > >>>>>> profond=C3=A9ment le mod=C3=A8le =C3=A9conomique de > > la bande passante en France. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> 2. Les hyperscalers sont critiqu=C3=A9s pour le prix de > > leur trafic sortant, > > >>>>>> qui > > >>>>>> va d'environ 0,08=E2=82=AC =C3=A0 0,045=E2=82=AC par Go selon > > le volume. La taxe, 0,055 =E2=82=AC > > >>>>>> par > > >>>>>> Go, repr=C3=A9sente 68 % =C3=A0 123 % de ce prix. On > > parle donc de doubler, pour > > >>>>>> le > > >>>>>> trafic vers la France, un prix d=C3=A9j=C3=A0 > > jug=C3=A9 trop =C3=A9lev=C3=A9 ! > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> 3. Le cas d'OVHcloud. Nous envoyons de l'ordre de 500 > > Gbps au 95e > > >>>>>> percentile vers les FAI fran=C3=A7ais, soit environ 324 > > Gbps en moyenne. Sur > > >>>>>> un > > >>>>>> an, la taxe brute atteindrait 70 M=E2=82=AC. Le texte la > > plafonne =C3=A0 15 % du CA > > >>>>>> r=C3=A9alis=C3=A9 en France ou =C3=A0 2 % du CA > > mondial, soit entre environ 23 et 70 > > >>>>>> M=E2=82=AC > > >>>>>> par an que nous devrions collecter pour l'=C3=89tat, et > > donc r=C3=A9percuter sur > > >>>>>> nos > > >>>>>> clients. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Conclusions : > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> 1. Une taxe porte en g=C3=A9n=C3=A9ral sur une petite > > fraction de son assiette. > > >>>>>> Celle-ci vaut plus de 3000 % du co=C3=BBt du transit, et > > environ 100 % du > > >>>>>> prix > > >>>>>> public des hyperscalers. Rappelez-vous la loi SREN, > > vot=C3=A9e pour > > >>>>>> supprimer > > >>>>>> les frais de transfert qui emp=C3=AAchaient les clients > > de quitter un > > >>>>>> fournisseur cloud. Ici, on parle de doubler le prix du > > trafic sortant > > >>>>>> vers > > >>>>>> les internautes fran=C3=A7ais, un prix > > d=C3=A9j=C3=A0 tr=C3=A8s probl=C3=A9matique. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> 2. Le garde-fou, un plafond calcul=C3=A9 sur le chiffre > > d'affaires, est > > >>>>>> incoh=C3=A9rent. Ce chiffre d'affaires couvre des > > serveurs, du stockage, des > > >>>>>> datacenters et des =C3=A9quipes sans rapport avec la > > bande passante. C'est > > >>>>>> comme > > >>>>>> cr=C3=A9er une taxe calcul=C3=A9e sur la consommation > > =C3=A9lectrique des usines > > >>>>>> automobiles en France, plafonn=C3=A9e =C3=A0 15 % du > > chiffre d'affaires des > > >>>>>> constructeurs. Quel rapport entre les deux ? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> 3. Une taxe nationale de ce type frappe =C3=A0 coup > > s=C3=BBr les entreprises > > >>>>>> =C3=A9tablies > > >>>>>> en France, alors que leurs concurrents mondiaux sans > > pr=C3=A9sence en France > > >>>>>> livrent le m=C3=AAme trafic aux m=C3=AAmes FAI > > fran=C3=A7ais sans payer cette taxe en > > >>>>>> pratique. Cela cr=C3=A9e une distorsion de concurrence > > au d=C3=A9triment des > > >>>>>> acteurs > > >>>>>> nationaux et d=C3=A9classe les entreprises qui > > embauchent en France. Une > > >>>>>> taxe > > >>>>>> qui produit l'effet inverse serait une meilleure > > approche. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> (a) Factur=C3=A9 au 95e percentile, ce port n'est pas > > plein en permanence : > > >>>>>> avec > > >>>>>> un profil journalier type (22 % vers 4 h, 90 % vers 21 > > h), il > > >>>>>> transporte en > > >>>>>> moyenne 57 % de sa capacit=C3=A9, soit 18,6 millions de > > Go par mois. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> All the best, > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Frank > > >>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: 1965-2025 > > >>>>>> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > >>>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > <+421%20919%20416%20714> > > >>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <775%20230%20885> > > >>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca > > >>>>>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>> Bloat mailing list -- bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to > > bloat-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>> Bloat mailing list -- bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to > > bloat-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>> Bloat mailing list -- bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to > > bloat-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to > > nnagain-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> Sascha Meinrath > > >>> Director, X-Lab > > >>> Palmer Chair in Telecommunications > > >>> Penn State University > > >> > > >> > > > > >=20 > > -- > > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > _______________________________________________ > > Cake mailing list -- cake@lists.bufferbloat.net > > To unsubscribe send an email to cake-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net > >