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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 4d32cb8707a8610b364291cc371f61f3; Thu, 19 Dec 2024 16:53:45 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------NVK7a3gP8QDdqJRJ1aehtN3f" Message-ID: <28f85903-cd0e-4cd0-909e-d94f5194a375@rogers.com> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2024 11:53:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <73o87647-p702-r61r-5389-47n7oqp940r5@ynat.uz> <0795300a-f3c4-4b7c-bd06-99d43de0a07b@rogers.com> <20241219084217.46016974@hermes.local> Content-Language: en-US From: David Collier-Brown In-Reply-To: <20241219084217.46016974@hermes.local> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.23040 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Subject: Re: [Bloat] fcc request for standardized speed testing X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2024 16:53:47 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------NVK7a3gP8QDdqJRJ1aehtN3f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/19/24 11:42, Stephen Hemminger via Bloat wrote: > On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 11:31:08 -0500 > David Collier-Brown via Bloat wrote: > >> On 12/18/24 17:17, David Lang via Bloat wrote: >>> so, what happens when a standardized test is mandated and then it's >>> found that that test isn't as good as others? >>> >>> I'm leery of any government mandates. >> Governments in general are good a "policing" things*, such as >> deficiencies in specifications and persons trying to weasel around them. >> >> At the same time, good specifiers write in "or better" clauses so that >> subsequent standards can be a few lines added to the original work. >> >> We can tell that is broken in Canada when the CRTC does a request for >> comments ... but then rejects all the comments and proposed amendments. >> Oh, and resists publishing them (:-)) >> >> Have you seen that in the US? >> >> --dave > And it will just create benchmark cheating... > Look at any of the standardized database benchmarks as an example. > The benchmark starts out trying to an express a workload; then the vendors > discover new and creative ways to get higher numbers. > _______________________________________________ Hmmn, and that's for non-mandated performance standards! I'll speculate here that we have a "whack-a-mole" situation. No matter how many holes you fix, you can't make a benchmark fair. The interesting question is if you can make a "not less than" rule system monotonically reduce the attack surface, instead of leaving it the same size or worse (:-)) I know we do that with case law (I'm a former Quicklaw nerd) but it can be /arbitrarily/ hard... --dave -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain --------------NVK7a3gP8QDdqJRJ1aehtN3f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


On 12/19/24 11:42, Stephen Hemminger via Bloat wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 11:31:08 -0500
David Collier-Brown via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:


On 12/18/24 17:17, David Lang via Bloat wrote:

so, what happens when a standardized test is mandated and then it's 
found that that test isn't as good as others?

I'm leery of any government mandates.  

Governments in general are good a "policing" things*, such as 
deficiencies in specifications and persons trying to weasel around them.

At the same time, good specifiers write in "or better" clauses so that 
subsequent standards can be a few lines added to the original work.

We can tell that is broken in Canada when the CRTC does a request for 
comments ... but then rejects all the comments and proposed amendments. 
Oh, and resists publishing them (:-))

Have you seen that in the US?

--dave

And it will just create benchmark cheating...
Look at any of the standardized database benchmarks as an example.
The benchmark starts out trying to an express a workload; then the vendors
discover new and creative ways to get higher numbers.
_______________________________________________

Hmmn, and that's for non-mandated performance standards!

I'll speculate here that we have a "whack-a-mole" situation. No matter how many holes you fix, you can't make a benchmark fair.

The interesting question is if you can make a "not less than" rule system monotonically reduce the attack surface, instead of leaving it the same size or worse (:-))

I know we do that with case law (I'm a former Quicklaw nerd) but it can be arbitrarily hard...

--dave

-- 
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
davecb@spamcop.net           |              -- Mark Twain
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