From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de [141.3.10.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A19743B2A4 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2018 03:41:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from i72vorta.tm.uni-karlsruhe.de ([141.3.71.26] helo=i72vorta.tm.kit.edu) by iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de with esmtp port 25 iface 141.3.10.81 id 1gSHt2-0005Sy-Gj; Thu, 29 Nov 2018 09:41:28 +0100 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (ip6-localhost [IPv6:::1]) by i72vorta.tm.kit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 755EF42007D; Thu, 29 Nov 2018 09:41:28 +0100 (CET) To: Dave Taht Cc: Luca Muscariello , Jonathan Morton , bloat References: <65EAC6C1-4688-46B6-A575-A6C7F2C066C5@heistp.net> <86b16a95-e47d-896b-9d43-69c65c52afc7@kit.edu> <7e6cc6f4-bd2f-49b5-0f64-292f56a0592c@kit.edu> <878t1cwcvn.fsf@taht.net> From: "Bless, Roland (TM)" Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=roland.bless@kit.edu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFi0OxABEACy2VohJ7VhSu/xPCt4/6qCrw4Pw2nSklWPfAYEk1QgrbiwgvLAP9WEhAIU w45cojBaDxytIGg8eaYeIKSmsXjHGbV/ZTfo8r11LX8yPYR0WHiMWZpl0SHUd/CZIkv2pChO 88vF/2FKN95HDcp24pwONF4VhxJoSFk6c0mDNf8Em/Glt9BcWX2AAvizTmpQDshaPje18WH3 4++KwPZDd/sJ/hHSXiPg1Gdhs/OG/C0CJguOAlqbgSVAe3qKOr1M4K5M+wVpsk373pXRfxd7 ZAmZ05iBTn+LfgVcz+AfaKKcsWri5CdTT+7JDL6QNQpox+b5FXZFSHnEIST+/qzfG7G2LqqY mml6TYY8XbaNyXZP0QKncfSpRx8uTRWReHUa1YbSuOxXYh6bXpcugD25mlC/Lu0g7tz4ijiK iIwq9+P2H1KfAAfYyYZh6nOoE6ET0TjOjUSa+mA8cqjPWX99kEEgf1Xo+P9fx9QLCLWIY7zc mSM+vjQKgdUFpMSCKcYEKOuwlPuOz8bVECafxaEtJJHjCOK8zowe2eC9OM+G+bmtAO3qYcYZ hQ/PV3sztt/PjgdtnFAYPFLc9189rHRxKsWSOb4xPkRw/YQAI9l15OlUEpsyOehxmAmTsesn tSViCz++PCdeXrQc1BCgl8nDytrxW+n5w1aaE8aL3hn8M0tonQARAQABzShSb2xhbmQgQmxl c3MgKFRNKSA8cm9sYW5kLmJsZXNzQGtpdC5lZHU+wsGABBMBCAAqAhsDBQkSzAMABQsJCAcC BhUICQoLAgQWAgMBAh4BAheABQJYtYdHAhkBAAoJEKON2tlkOJXuzWkP+wfjUnDNzRm4r34a AMWepcQziTgqf4I1crcL6VD44767HhyFsjcKH31E5G5gTDxbpsM4pmkghKeLrpPo30YK3qb7 E9ifIkpJTvMu0StSUmcXq0zPyHZ+HxHeMWkosljG3g/4YekCqgWwrB62T7NMYq0ATQe1MGCZ TAPwSPGCUZT3ioq50800FMI8okkGTXS3h2U922em7k8rv7E349uydv19YEcS7tI78pggMdap ASoP3QWB03tzPKwjqQqSevy64uKDEa0UgvAM3PRbJxOYZlX1c3q/CdWwpwgUiAhMtPWvavWW Tcw6Kkk6e0gw4oFlDQ+hZooLv5rlYR3egdV4DPZ1ugL51u0wQCQG9qKIMXslAdmKbRDkEcWG Oi2bWAdYyIHhhQF5LSuaaxC2P2vOYRHnE5yv5KTV3V7piFgPFjKDW+giCRd7VGfod6DY2b2y zwidCMve1Qsm8+NErH6U+hMpMLeCJDMu1OOvXYbFnTkqjeg5sKipUoSdgXsIo4kl+oArZlpK qComSTPhij7rMyeu/1iOwbNCjtiqgb55ZE7Ekd84mr9sbq4Jm/4QGnVI30q4U2vdGSeNbVjo d1nqjf3UNzP2ZC+H9xjsCFuKYbCX6Yy4SSuEcubtdmdBqm13pxua4ZqPSI0DQST2CHC7nxL1 AaRGRYYh5zo2vRg3ipkEzsFNBFi0OxABEAC2CJNp0/Ivkv4KOiXxitsMXZeK9fI0NU2JU1rW 04dMLF63JF8AFiJ6qeSL2mPHoMiL+fG5jlxy050xMdpMKxnhDVdMxwPtMiGxbByfvrXu18/M B7h+E1DHYVRdFFPaL2jiw+Bvn6wTT31MiuG9Wh0WAhoW8jY8IXxKQrUn7QUOKsWhzNlvVpOo SjMiW4WXksUA0EQVbmlskS/MnFOgCr8q/FqwC81KPy+VLHPB9K/B65uQdpaw78fjAgQVQqpx H7gUF1EYpdZWyojN+V8HtLJx+9yWAZjSFO593OF3/r0nDHEycuOjhefCrqr0DDgTYUNthOdU KO2CzT7MtweRtAf0n27zbwoYvkTviIbR+1lV1vNkxaUtZ6e1rtOxvonRM1O3ddFIzRp/Qufu HfPe0YqhEsrBIGW1aE/pZW8khNQlB6qt20snL9cFDrnB6+8kDG3e//OjK1ICQj9Y/yyrJVaX KfPbdHhLpsgh8TMDPoH+XXQlDJljMD0++/o7ckO3Sfa8Zsyh1WabyKQDYXDmDgi9lCoaQ7Lf uLUpoMvJV+EWo0jE4RW/wBGQbLJp5usy5i0fhBKuDwsKdLG3qOCf4depIcNuja6ZmZHRT+3R FFjvZ/dAhrCWpRTxZANlWlLZz6htToJulAZQJD6lcpVr7EVgDX/y4cNwKF79egWXPDPOvQAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJYtDsQAhsMBQkSzAMAAAoJEKON2tlkOJXukMoP/jNeiglj8fenH2We 7SJuyBp8+5L3n8eNwfwY5C5G+etD0E6/lkt/Jj9UddTazxeB154rVFXRzmcN3+hGCOZgGAyV 1N7d8xM6dBqRtHmRMPu5fUxfSqrM9pmqAw2gmzAe0eztVvaM+x5x5xID2WZOiOq8dx9KOKrp Zorekjs3GEA3V1wlZ7Nksx/o8KZ04hLeKcR1r06zEDLN/yA+Fz8IPa0KqpuhrL010bQDgAhe 9o5TA0/cMJpxpLqHhX2As+5cQAhKDDsWJu3oBzZRkN7Hh/HTpWurmTQRRniLGSeiL0zdtilX fowyxGXH6QWi3MZYmpOq+etr7o4EGGbm2inxpVbM+NYmaJs+MAi/z5bsO/rABwdM5ysm8hwb CGt+1oEMORyMcUk/uRjclgTZM1NhGoXm1Un67+Rehu04i7DA6b8dd1H8AFgZSO2H4IKi+5yA Ldmo+ftCJS83Nf6Wi6hJnKG9aWQjKL+qmZqBEct/D2uRJGWAERU5+D0RwNV/i9lQFCYNjG9X Tew0BPYYnBtHFlz9rJTqGhDu4ubulSkbxAK3TIk8XzKdMvef3tV/7mJCmcaVbJ2YoNUtkdKJ goOigJTMBXMRu4Ibyq1Ei+d90lxhojKKlf9yguzpxk5KYFGUizp0dtvdNuXRBtYrwzykS6vB zTlLqHZ0pvGjNfTSvuuN Organization: Institute of Telematics, Karlsruhe Institute of Technology Message-ID: <2b158ccd-4040-9c8f-797e-7f44cfb9abf3@kit.edu> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 09:41:28 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <878t1cwcvn.fsf@taht.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ATIS-AV: ClamAV (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de) X-ATIS-Timestamp: iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de 1543480888.570318233 Subject: Re: [Bloat] when does the CoDel part of fq_codel help in the real world? X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 08:41:34 -0000 Hi Dave, Am 29.11.18 um 08:39 schrieb Dave Taht: > "Bless, Roland (TM)" writes: > >> Hi Luca, >> >> Am 27.11.18 um 11:40 schrieb Luca Muscariello: >>> OK. We agree. >>> That's correct, you need *at least* the BDP in flight so that the >>> bottleneck queue never empties out. >> >> No, that's not what I meant, but it's quite simple. >> You need: data min_inflight=2 * RTTmin * bottleneck_rate to filly >> utilize the bottleneck link. >> If this is true, the bottleneck queue will be empty. If your amount >> of inflight data is larger, the bottleneck queue buffer will store >> the excess packets. With just min_inflight there will be no >> bottleneck queue, the packets are "on the wire". >> >>> This can be easily proven using fluid models for any congestion >>> controlled source no matter if it is  >>> loss-based, delay-based, rate-based, formula-based etc. >>> >>> A highly paced source gives you the ability to get as close as >>> theoretically possible to the BDP+epsilon >>> as possible. >> >> Yep, but that BDP is "on the wire" and epsilon will be in the bottleneck >> buffer. > > I'm hoping I made my point effectively earlier, that > > " data min_inflight=2 * RTTmin * bottleneck_rate " That factor of 2 was a mistake in my first mail (sorry for that...). I corrected that three minutes after. I should have written: data min_inflight=RTTmin * bottleneck_rate > when it is nearly certain that more than one flow exists, means aiming > for the BDP in a single flow is generally foolish. Liked the stanford I think one should not confuse the buffer sizing rule with the calcluation for inflight data... > result, I think it's pretty general. I see hundreds of flows active > every minute. There was another paper that looked into some magic > 200-ish number as simultaneous flows active, normally So for buffer sizing, the BDP dependent rule is foolish in general, because it is optimized for older loss-based TCP congestion controls so that they can keep the utilization high. It's correct that in presence of multiple flows and good loss desynchronization, you still get high utilization with a smaller buffer (Appenzeller et. al, SIGCOMM 2004). However, when it comes to CWnd sizing, that inflight rule would convert to: data min_inflight=RTTmin * bottleneck_rate_share because other flows are present at the bottleneck. Interestingly enough: flows with a different RTT_min should use different CWnds, but their amount of queued data at the bottleneck should be nearly equal if you want to have flow rate fairness. Regards Roland