* Re: [Bloat] Rigorous Coffee Shop Bloat Testing
@ 2019-09-03 15:57 Rich Brown
2019-09-03 17:29 ` Dave Taht
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Rich Brown @ 2019-09-03 15:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bloat
> On Sep 3, 2019, at 11:22 AM, bloat-request@lists.bufferbloat.net wrote:
>
> The coffee shop tests were fun, but I(we) needed more rigor when doing
> them. What I'd typically do is go in,
> get on the wifi, start 6 minutes worth of tests, get in line, get
> coffee...
OK. I'll bite. What "six minutes of tests" do you queue up? What do you record?
And how do you broach the subject with the owner? Something like...
"Uh, I think I know why all those heads are popping up..." OR
"This is a nice network you have here. It'd be a shame if something happened to it..." OR
"I know I look like [don't look like] a pointy-headed geek, but there's this thing called bufferbloat..." OR
"Do you ever get complaints that your wifi is really slow?"
Thanks.
Rich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] Rigorous Coffee Shop Bloat Testing 2019-09-03 15:57 [Bloat] Rigorous Coffee Shop Bloat Testing Rich Brown @ 2019-09-03 17:29 ` Dave Taht 2019-09-04 0:03 ` Kenneth Porter 2019-09-04 0:40 ` Stephen Hemminger 0 siblings, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Dave Taht @ 2019-09-03 17:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Rich Brown; +Cc: bloat [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4807 bytes --] On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 8:57 AM Rich Brown <richb.hanover@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Sep 3, 2019, at 11:22 AM, bloat-request@lists.bufferbloat.net wrote: > > > > The coffee shop tests were fun, but I(we) needed more rigor when doing > > them. What I'd typically do is go in, > > get on the wifi, start 6 minutes worth of tests, get in line, get > > coffee... > > OK. I'll bite. What "six minutes of tests" do you queue up? What do you record? Still working out what the "right thing" would be. The ecn syn failure thing was new (didn't know OSX had that stat), getting some caps, seeing if ipv6 was available, all seem like good ideas, in addition to bloat protection. the most recent script was this - (the data is in my blog-cerowrt repo on github, also). We could turn this into a batch file and try to get more rigorous about also getting a packet cap. Is there a decent android or IOS tool yet? #!/bin/sh T="Los_Gatos_Starbucks" F="flent -x -H flent-fremont.bufferbloat.net -t $T" $F --te=download_streams=4 tcp_ndown $F --te=upload_streams=4 --socket-stats tcp_nup # $F --te=upload_streams=4 tcp_2up_square # not useful enough $F rrul $F rrul_be > And how do you broach the subject with the owner? Something like... Carefully. The owners are always ready to take a complement or complaint, and, so long as you catch 'em when not too busy are usually pretty social in general. In many cases they share the wifi with their credit card reader and when I say that fixing bufferbloat helps, their eyes light up. That was a specific problem that at least one had - demonstrable - I saw it take forever to clear a transaction (and the bloat was 2+ seconds long at the time - NOT triggered by me) once... he had a synology router, and "applying QoS" "just worked", and we did other things like reposition the antenna, also. got me lunch that did and he punched a whole bunch of holes in my "repeat business" card.... However the employees usually lack the router's password and clue. IF we were to make this a thing (and it does invoke fond memories of how we first spread wifi around the bay area and then the world in the early 2000s - I was part of a group called thirdbreak that generally lept across the counter to help a lot, back in the days we were so eager to get out of the office and onto wifi that we were mapping all the locations available - example: http://www.wififreespot.com/ca.php from those days...), perhaps carry a portable printer for the test output, biz cards, and so on for the no-owner-present case. I recently hit on the idea of creating stickers - attached is the one I'm using on my guitar... which is a bit too much over the top, I think, generally. but plan to give out 0.0.0.0/8 and 240.0.0.0/4 ones next time. They are cheap (I used stickermule) and with a cool logo, folk dig adorning their laptops with them, in general. Still, we've never found that logo/slogan for fixing bufferbloat - the word is too long and too negative, though I thought the inverted wifi logo we use on the cerowrt site a good start. "Better wifi". With more folk gathering data... Maybe (for example) we'd play off starbucks vs peets - attached is starbucks (using google wifi) vs another coffeeshop, coffeecat - sigh. but weirdly enough starbucks's packet cap - although very close to what a fq_codel'd trace would look like, doesn't actually seem to be a fq_codeled trace. Still puzzled, need to go back and try that spot again. And I gotta say, it's *really good* to get out of the lab once in a while and see people, and sometimes, actually fix something, trying a different coffee shop every week. I guess, in the cases where the coffee doesn't become free, I could deduct it as a business expense. :) > "Uh, I think I know why all those heads are popping up..." OR > "This is a nice network you have here. It'd be a shame if something happened to it..." OR Oh, that's great! Goes with my costume, too. "Hey buddy, got an ipv6 address?" > "I know I look like [don't look like] a pointy-headed geek, but there's this thing called bufferbloat..." OR > "Do you ever get complaints that your wifi is really slow?" I might also have an agenda in trying to see how much ipv6 is out there, and the syn thing is bugging me, too. So with a more organized set of tests, we could fan out to the coffee shops of the world and forment another wifi revolution and turn that world upside down! Who's with me!? > Thanks. > > Rich > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat -- Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-205-9740 [-- Attachment #2: tcp_ndown_-_los_gatos_starbucks.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 128917 bytes --] [-- Attachment #3: tcp_ndown_-_coffeecat.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 90203 bytes --] [-- Attachment #4: vogons2.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 27507 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] Rigorous Coffee Shop Bloat Testing 2019-09-03 17:29 ` Dave Taht @ 2019-09-04 0:03 ` Kenneth Porter 2019-09-04 0:40 ` Stephen Hemminger 1 sibling, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Kenneth Porter @ 2019-09-04 0:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bloat --On Tuesday, September 03, 2019 11:29 AM -0700 Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote: > In many cases they share the wifi with their credit card reader and > when I say that fixing bufferbloat helps, > their eyes light up. That was a specific problem that at least one had > - demonstrable - I saw it take forever > to clear a transaction (and the bloat was 2+ seconds long at the time > - NOT triggered by me) once... he had a synology router, and "applying > QoS" "just worked", and we did other things like reposition the > antenna, also. got me lunch > that did and he punched a whole bunch of holes in my "repeat business" > card.... My favorite cafe owner would just look like a deer in the headlights over this. She doesn't do online at all and just provides the wifi for customers. I'm not sure who set it up for her. Her CC reader is dial-up. I'm pretty new myself to hacking a consumer router so I don't know what's even possible. Likely her router doesn't even have any settings to deal with bloat. What can you do without risking breaking things and ending up with an angry owner? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] Rigorous Coffee Shop Bloat Testing 2019-09-03 17:29 ` Dave Taht 2019-09-04 0:03 ` Kenneth Porter @ 2019-09-04 0:40 ` Stephen Hemminger 2019-09-04 2:13 ` Kenneth Porter 1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Stephen Hemminger @ 2019-09-04 0:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dave Taht; +Cc: Rich Brown, bloat On Tue, 3 Sep 2019 10:29:51 -0700 Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 8:57 AM Rich Brown <richb.hanover@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Sep 3, 2019, at 11:22 AM, bloat-request@lists.bufferbloat.net wrote: > > > > > > The coffee shop tests were fun, but I(we) needed more rigor when doing > > > them. What I'd typically do is go in, > > > get on the wifi, start 6 minutes worth of tests, get in line, get > > > coffee... > > > > OK. I'll bite. What "six minutes of tests" do you queue up? What do you record? > > Still working out what the "right thing" would be. The ecn syn failure > thing was new (didn't know OSX had that stat), getting some caps, > seeing if ipv6 was available, all seem like good ideas, in addition to > bloat protection. > > the most recent script was this - (the data is in my blog-cerowrt repo > on github, also). > > We could turn this into a batch file and try to get more rigorous > about also getting a packet cap. > > Is there a decent android or IOS tool yet? > > #!/bin/sh > > T="Los_Gatos_Starbucks" > F="flent -x -H flent-fremont.bufferbloat.net -t $T" > > $F --te=download_streams=4 tcp_ndown > $F --te=upload_streams=4 --socket-stats tcp_nup > # $F --te=upload_streams=4 tcp_2up_square # not useful enough > $F rrul > $F rrul_be > > > > And how do you broach the subject with the owner? Something like... > > Carefully. The owners are always ready to take a complement or > complaint, and, so long as you catch 'em when > not too busy are usually pretty social in general. > > In many cases they share the wifi with their credit card reader and > when I say that fixing bufferbloat helps, > their eyes light up. That was a specific problem that at least one had > - demonstrable - I saw it take forever > to clear a transaction (and the bloat was 2+ seconds long at the time > - NOT triggered by me) once... he had a synology router, and "applying > QoS" "just worked", and we did other things like reposition the > antenna, also. got me lunch > that did and he punched a whole bunch of holes in my "repeat business" card.... > > However the employees usually lack the router's password and clue. > > IF we were to make this a thing (and it does invoke fond memories of > how we first spread wifi around the bay area > and then the world in the early 2000s - I was part of a group called > thirdbreak that generally lept across the counter to help a lot, back > in the days we were so eager to get out of the office and onto wifi > that we were mapping all the locations available - example: > http://www.wififreespot.com/ca.php from those days...), perhaps carry > a portable printer for the test output, biz cards, and so on for the > no-owner-present case. > > I recently hit on the idea of creating stickers - attached is the one > I'm using on my guitar... > > which is a bit too much over the top, I think, generally. > > but plan to give out 0.0.0.0/8 and 240.0.0.0/4 ones next time. > > They are cheap (I used stickermule) and with a cool logo, folk dig > adorning their laptops with them, in general. Still, > we've never found that logo/slogan for fixing bufferbloat - the word > is too long and too negative, though I thought > the inverted wifi logo we use on the cerowrt site a good start. "Better wifi". > > With more folk gathering data... > > Maybe (for example) we'd play off starbucks vs peets - attached is > starbucks (using google wifi) vs another coffeeshop, coffeecat - sigh. > but weirdly enough starbucks's packet cap - although very close to > what a fq_codel'd trace would look like, doesn't actually seem to be a > fq_codeled trace. Still puzzled, need to go back and try that spot > again. > > And I gotta say, it's *really good* to get out of the lab once in a > while and see people, and sometimes, actually fix something, trying a > different coffee shop every week. > > I guess, in the cases where the coffee doesn't become free, I could > deduct it as a business expense. :) > > > "Uh, I think I know why all those heads are popping up..." OR > > "This is a nice network you have here. It'd be a shame if something happened to it..." OR > > Oh, that's great! Goes with my costume, too. "Hey buddy, got an ipv6 address?" > > > "I know I look like [don't look like] a pointy-headed geek, but there's this thing called bufferbloat..." OR > > "Do you ever get complaints that your wifi is really slow?" > > I might also have an agenda in trying to see how much ipv6 is out > there, and the syn thing is bugging me, too. > So with a more organized set of tests, we could fan out to the coffee > shops of the world and forment another > wifi revolution and turn that world upside down! Who's with me!? There was a recent Wall Street Journal article that faster Internet doesn't mean anything. https://www.wsj.com/graphics/faster-internet-not-worth-it/ I just thought "faster Internet just exposes your existing Bufferbloat" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] Rigorous Coffee Shop Bloat Testing 2019-09-04 0:40 ` Stephen Hemminger @ 2019-09-04 2:13 ` Kenneth Porter 2019-09-04 3:17 ` Dave Taht 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Kenneth Porter @ 2019-09-04 2:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bloat On 9/3/2019 5:40 PM, Stephen Hemminger wrote: > There was a recent Wall Street Journal article that faster Internet doesn't mean anything. > https://www.wsj.com/graphics/faster-internet-not-worth-it/ > > I just thought "faster Internet just exposes your existing Bufferbloat" I hit a paywall trying to read that so I looked up the article title and found some interesting commentary: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/19/08/20/1450204/the-truth-about-faster-internet-its-not-worth-it https://stopthecap.com/2019/08/20/wall-street-journal-says-faster-internet-not-worth-it-but-they-ignore-bottlenecks-and-data-caps/ Most people are streamers and won't fill a fat pipe. The big winners of fast Internet are people who want to download a huge game and play it quickly. But those are rare. (I'm a gamer but I'm patient and can wait a day to play so I'm happy to save money on a cheaper package that can be used for something else.) As you say, when people report slow Internet, it's probably bloat, not the speed of the package. But faster packages make money for the ISPs. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] Rigorous Coffee Shop Bloat Testing 2019-09-04 2:13 ` Kenneth Porter @ 2019-09-04 3:17 ` Dave Taht 2019-09-04 3:24 ` Jonathan Morton 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Dave Taht @ 2019-09-04 3:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Kenneth Porter; +Cc: bloat Kenneth Porter <shiva@sewingwitch.com> writes: > On 9/3/2019 5:40 PM, Stephen Hemminger wrote: >> There was a recent Wall Street Journal article that faster Internet doesn't mean anything. >> https://www.wsj.com/graphics/faster-internet-not-worth-it/ >> >> I just thought "faster Internet just exposes your existing Bufferbloat" > > I hit a paywall trying to read that so I looked up the article title > and found some interesting commentary: > > https://tech.slashdot.org/story/19/08/20/1450204/the-truth-about-faster-internet-its-not-worth-it > > https://stopthecap.com/2019/08/20/wall-street-journal-says-faster-internet-not-worth-it-but-they-ignore-bottlenecks-and-data-caps/ > > Most people are streamers and won't fill a fat pipe. The big winners The market has shifted. With streaming becoming a thing (instead of bittorrent), ISPs had to ensure that there was enough bandwidth during peak hours across their entire platform to keep users from screaming. Once everybody upgraded to "enough", because the usage pattern had shifted, few want or need more. > of fast Internet are people who want to download a huge game and play > it quickly. But those are rare. (I'm a gamer but I'm patient and can Well in the cases of shared internet, more BW (and less bufferbloat) helps a lot. Small businesses such as coffee shops, etc. But they are a much smaller portion of the market than the home. It's semi-worse/semi-better than that - usage has shifted to people's LTE phones for a lot of things, and they forget to enable wifi. I think ISPs have shot themselves in the foot, perhaps permanently. * By shipping buggy gear and bad wifi * Not investing in good ipv4 and ipv6 technologies * By having bad latency, the user experience is comparable to lte apps * By not allowing services in the home, they've shifted to the cloud Growth for ISPs could come from higher upload bandwidths - and I kind of hope they start marketing "FASTER UPLOADS!" "Great Gaming!" "Killer Videoconferencing!" "Multiple security cameras!" etc - Even a mere doubling of upload speeds helps a lot. ... instead of doing that, some are trying to put on data caps and other barriers to using the oversupply of bandwidth they now have with no demand. Certainly there's a big focus on somehow delivering 4k or higher video - and that's really not very perceptible, just a bunch a bits.... cisco just pulled out of the docsis 10Gbit effort. There's no demand. The demand for (some) fiber exists simply because cablemodems are so bad - and have 5x the baseline RTT as fiber does - and hype. Gfiber and FIOS struggle. Sonic in SF, is doing well, but that's SF for you. "DOCSIS-LL - now with lower RTTs! Buy it now!" > wait a day to play so I'm happy to save money on a cheaper package > that can be used for something else.) I subsist on a really tiny amount of bandwidth, managed of course by cake. > > As you say, when people report slow Internet, it's probably bloat, not > the speed of the package. But faster packages make money for the ISPs. Nobody on the slashdot article chimed in on the bufferbloat front. But whatever. Back in 2012... I thought we'd basically hit "peak bandwidth" at ~40Mbit/user, and we just needed to optimize for RTTs to utilize that always at multiple levels - be that physical rtt on link - or via cdns - or wifi - etc. I'd argued strenously with cablelabs that their benchmarks were wrong - that web page growth was not exponential (avg web page size has only doubled in 7 years) - this is a great resource: https://httparchive.org/reports/state-of-the-web#bytesTotal ... that everything was bound by RTT - that a single queue AQM was smoked by fq due to the reduced RTTs on bidirectional traffic... google published a great benchmark about why RTT was so important... https://www.igvita.com/2012/07/19/latency-the-new-web-performance-bottleneck/ and.... they didn't fix it. Took years to rollout docsis 3.1, which is still only tiny.... better uploads rolled out first which helped on generic RTTs.... Unless usage patterns change - fixing bufferbloat, and back to things like torrent running all the time, or folk migrating services en-mass back into their homes and businesses, I don't see bandwidth related revenue growth for land-line ISPs. Sure, we'll see dsl users continue to migrate to whatever they can, and people jump off of cable as soon as they can get fiber... but that's due to the RTT more than the bandwidth. I do hope - 10 years from now - someone points at what I just said and laughs, showing their 10Gbit home fiber line saturated with brainwave to smellovision full immersion bi-dir traffic, or something like that. And I still hope people get out into the real world into more nice coffeeshops, and hang out. I remember when lan parties were a thing.... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] Rigorous Coffee Shop Bloat Testing 2019-09-04 3:17 ` Dave Taht @ 2019-09-04 3:24 ` Jonathan Morton 2019-09-04 5:49 ` Stephen Hemminger 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Jonathan Morton @ 2019-09-04 3:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dave Taht; +Cc: Kenneth Porter, bloat > On 4 Sep, 2019, at 6:17 am, Dave Taht <dave@taht.net> wrote: > > …and people jump off of cable as soon as > they can get fiber... but that's due to the RTT more than the bandwidth. And also due to the downright predatory pricing/billing practices of the typical cable ISP. I think an awful lot of people would take any viable alternative at this point, purely due to that factor. Which is why cable industry lobbyists are doing their level best to kill municipal fibre. - Jonathan Morton ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] Rigorous Coffee Shop Bloat Testing 2019-09-04 3:24 ` Jonathan Morton @ 2019-09-04 5:49 ` Stephen Hemminger 2019-10-04 19:05 ` Dave Taht 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Stephen Hemminger @ 2019-09-04 5:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jonathan Morton; +Cc: Dave Taht, bloat On Wed, 4 Sep 2019 06:24:07 +0300 Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 4 Sep, 2019, at 6:17 am, Dave Taht <dave@taht.net> wrote: > > > > …and people jump off of cable as soon as > > they can get fiber... but that's due to the RTT more than the bandwidth. > > And also due to the downright predatory pricing/billing practices of the typical cable ISP. I think an awful lot of people would take any viable alternative at this point, purely due to that factor. Which is why cable industry lobbyists are doing their level best to kill municipal fibre. I am convinced that all the hype about 5G will die when people see how the ISP's in the US will want to price it. They will certainly want to charge a premium for 5G to avoid under cutting their current overpriced service. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] Rigorous Coffee Shop Bloat Testing 2019-09-04 5:49 ` Stephen Hemminger @ 2019-10-04 19:05 ` Dave Taht 2019-10-04 19:22 ` Dave Collier-Brown 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Dave Taht @ 2019-10-04 19:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stephen Hemminger; +Cc: Jonathan Morton, bloat On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 10:49 PM Stephen Hemminger <stephen@networkplumber.org> wrote: > > On Wed, 4 Sep 2019 06:24:07 +0300 > Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 4 Sep, 2019, at 6:17 am, Dave Taht <dave@taht.net> wrote: > > > > > > …and people jump off of cable as soon as > > > they can get fiber... but that's due to the RTT more than the bandwidth. > > > > And also due to the downright predatory pricing/billing practices of the typical cable ISP. I think an awful lot of people would take any viable alternative at this point, purely due to that factor. Which is why cable industry lobbyists are doing their level best to kill municipal fibre. > > I am convinced that all the hype about 5G will die when people see how the > ISP's in the US will want to price it. They will certainly want to charge > a premium for 5G to avoid under cutting their current overpriced service. It's not just that, but nobody knows how much or how well ipv6 will roll out there, and I figure the 5G folk are into double nat and massive CGNAT use overall. Gamers are going to hate it, if it's like that. Have the 5G folk published anything regarding their ipv6 intentions? > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat -- Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-205-9740 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] Rigorous Coffee Shop Bloat Testing 2019-10-04 19:05 ` Dave Taht @ 2019-10-04 19:22 ` Dave Collier-Brown 0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Dave Collier-Brown @ 2019-10-04 19:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bloat [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2389 bytes --] Off-topic, my custom phone manufacturer posted a supposed picture of the handset size they expected to use to provide acceptable cooling and battery life: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/BC-611_Radio_Transmitter-Receiver_-_National_Cryptologic_Museum_-_DSC07810.JPG --dave On 2019-10-04 3:05 p.m., Dave Taht wrote: On Wed, 4 Sep 2019 06:24:07 +0300 Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com><mailto:chromatix99@gmail.com> wrote: On 4 Sep, 2019, at 6:17 am, Dave Taht <dave@taht.net><mailto:dave@taht.net> wrote: …and people jump off of cable as soon as they can get fiber... but that's due to the RTT more than the bandwidth. And also due to the downright predatory pricing/billing practices of the typical cable ISP. I think an awful lot of people would take any viable alternative at this point, purely due to that factor. Which is why cable industry lobbyists are doing their level best to kill municipal fibre. I am convinced that all the hype about 5G will die when people see how the ISP's in the US will want to price it. They will certainly want to charge a premium for 5G to avoid under cutting their current overpriced service. -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com<mailto:dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com> | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3658 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2019-10-04 19:22 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 10+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2019-09-03 15:57 [Bloat] Rigorous Coffee Shop Bloat Testing Rich Brown 2019-09-03 17:29 ` Dave Taht 2019-09-04 0:03 ` Kenneth Porter 2019-09-04 0:40 ` Stephen Hemminger 2019-09-04 2:13 ` Kenneth Porter 2019-09-04 3:17 ` Dave Taht 2019-09-04 3:24 ` Jonathan Morton 2019-09-04 5:49 ` Stephen Hemminger 2019-10-04 19:05 ` Dave Taht 2019-10-04 19:22 ` Dave Collier-Brown
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