From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk0-x22d.google.com (mail-qk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE9793B2A2 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 09:05:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-qk0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id x190so15885202qkb.0 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 06:05:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=Hx9TV/GnuDxtWaW5hnKljPqWaICv0f8g7+Nf9B9Sm5o=; b=k+31uT4N3X+jIS+8Ct6Evg3PRxn8vLS3k9hfyvKd9zjms0du1mfxGDBHqul9g/u054 RWY9YCpSE6o5vpEabD0/FRQuiDQ0UMVLYo8ndlgf2MEXXPPJCPLLVrQbJzKhf8tfI+R4 QvDzCc1KcLJfih7cv+2cjUpiVFWmdKkWaGIanCeYWU7yXK1NSX9orZ/4q3UPdqzTsvjm C75wFuJl3Suk/J/uaVT60epMjhx4MGUo8MGhIriW6dQOOXqTVLPizuHWYcuDQSmr46Ii GFop93G0Ll4GOu+eZGKPVApF6GUBGN4ylvgOtYGOZPi4XcYRDSBx0uGqKiBPP+03+jCK 36Iw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=Hx9TV/GnuDxtWaW5hnKljPqWaICv0f8g7+Nf9B9Sm5o=; b=aDXda0yWdEJGz1SVXyB8NbFkgfRb+RqDQnyxboogkWrkk0QllpYQhQVnUPP43XhZFi 71jpiJepKZUdSgpnLVuOx+jjgPmXb1dCWxji5eLEtWJalrwpnKWwfLKqNhTB6E3QcLOE V5piLHFyRoyKG/BQ9iYtY7pnvjTCMPGVtoC4yECDL3OWa7851eE+6YeajvvlRKNuSj0q /OPm6Im+uUDytbs+N+3Ajxy2MljELPaQ5mPRB59sNFmnm8BbGJ6W+gg7XPY8b33dMcsM o+91lcSy9ihhH2/zOzlAUB6qWNe80Wwdtn0G/oclwQlPu+zJdnG1NL86uazdsg3jv2i8 P4Jg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC03ye8qBFQVU2UyffrtvAlhMdCajujDqtR/34ucOUtUMW52Tdl9Lo45l/3psSpdaWw== X-Received: by 10.55.201.8 with SMTP id q8mr2728331qki.42.1479909939147; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 06:05:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.8.36] ([179.102.233.150]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f66sm16360624qkj.23.2016.11.23.06.05.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 23 Nov 2016 06:05:37 -0800 (PST) To: Pedro Tumusok , Kelvin Edmison References: <8d72490d-551a-c58f-991a-1750e9af8df9@gmail.com> Cc: bloat From: =?UTF-8?Q?M=c3=a1rio_S=c3=a9rgio_Fujikawa_Ferreira?= Message-ID: <320f3f40-9d93-ec28-32c5-17a8f229f65c@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 12:05:31 -0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------82B68642C73F5813A21CCC8C" Subject: Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017 X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 14:05:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------82B68642C73F5813A21CCC8C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 23/11/2016 11:31, Pedro Tumusok wrote: > > > On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Kelvin Edmison > wrote: > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 23, 2016, at 3:28 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson > wrote: > >> On Tue, 22 Nov 2016, Dave Taht wrote: >> >>> I would like to see the industries most affected by bufferbloat >>> - voip/videoconferencing/gaming,web gain a good recognition of >>> the problem, how to fix it, and who to talk to about it (router >>> makers and ISPs) >> >> It would be great if the realtime communications people (gaming, >> video, audio etc) had some kind of help page where people could >> be pointed to understand the problem. >> >> I saw a Youtube video btw, where they had problems with gaming >> because "I'm uploading a youtube video at the same time as I am >> gaming, stupid me". People don't even realise this is not the way >> it has to be. >> >> My take on this is that the problem is fairly well understood in >> "our" circles, but the wider audience still doesn't know, and >> even if they know, there is nowhere to go to fix it. >> >> If we can find a product that solves the gaming community problem >> (they're one of the people who have "ping" in their applications >> and who immediately notices when it's bad), we could perhaps >> approach someone prominent in that gaming community and making a >> video on how to solve the problem. >> >> "Look here, I did and now I can game and upload a youtube >> video at the same time without problems!!!!1111oneoneone" >> >> -- >> Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >> > > The gaming/youtube video is an excellent use case on whim to > build. Simple, compelling, and can easily demonstrate the > bufferbloat problem. > > One suggestion would be to talk to the people/web sites that > publish reviews of router and gaming performance. > > > Who actually cares about or read router reviews? I am guessing a > subset of the people that care about lag in FPS games. > > How about approaching the people that make the post popular games that > are affected. > > Battlefield series is from Dice and they have a main office in > Stockholm, Sweden. Given them a demo of a bloat free game and a > bloated game and hopefully get them to go to the players through their > channels on how to get a better game experience would most likely give > a better result. The game developers have their own conferences where > they share, so if somebody in a studio ended up doing a presentation > at these ones, it would also get the word out and about. > > There are other games, but I am not a big FPS gamer, so I googled and > this came up > > http://www.gamersdecide.com/pc-game-news/15-most-played-fps-games-2016-pc > > But we would need a couple of things > > 1. Establishing contact with the different game development studios > 2. Somebody to go and do a demo, shake hands and talk with them. > Video, I assume would be less effective. > > If this something we should try, I can help out with the first point, > but the second one probably needs local bufferbloat evangelists. IF we're heading on to gaming, perhaps attacking a huge vendor such as Valve's Steam. I have no idea how approachable they're of course. As for FPS gaming, I can tell you that the most prolific gamers will go to great lenghts to optimize their experience. They are far easier to convince to flash a router, modify windows drivers parameters, change broadband providers then the bigger audiance. As soon as others notice this "unfair" advantage they begin petitioning the game developers so that the "advantage" comes baked in rather than be a special recipe. > > -- > Best regards / Mvh > Jan Pedro Tumusok > > > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat --------------82B68642C73F5813A21CCC8C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



On 23/11/2016 11:31, Pedro Tumusok wrote:


On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Kelvin Edmison <kelvin@edmison.net> wrote:



Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 23, 2016, at 3:28 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:

On Tue, 22 Nov 2016, Dave Taht wrote:

I would like to see the industries most affected by bufferbloat - voip/videoconferencing/gaming,web gain a good recognition of the problem, how to fix it, and who to talk to about it (router makers and ISPs)

It would be great if the realtime communications people (gaming, video, audio etc) had some kind of help page where people could be pointed to understand the problem.

I saw a Youtube video btw, where they had problems with gaming because "I'm uploading a youtube video at the same time as I am gaming, stupid me". People don't even realise this is not the way it has to be.

My take on this is that the problem is fairly well understood in "our" circles, but the wider audience still doesn't know, and even if they know, there is nowhere to go to fix it.

If we can find a product that solves the gaming community problem (they're one of the people who have "ping" in their applications and who immediately notices when it's bad), we could perhaps approach someone prominent in that gaming community and making a video on how to solve the problem.

"Look here, I did <X> and now I can game and upload a youtube video at the same time without problems!!!!1111oneoneone"

--
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

The gaming/youtube video is an excellent use case on whim to build. Simple, compelling, and can easily demonstrate the bufferbloat problem. 

One suggestion would be to talk to the people/web sites that publish reviews of router and gaming performance. 

Who actually cares about or read router reviews? I am guessing a subset of the people that care about lag in FPS games.

How about approaching the people that make the post popular games that are affected. 

Battlefield series is from Dice and they have a main office in Stockholm, Sweden. Given them a demo of a bloat free game and a bloated game and hopefully get them to go to the players through their channels on how to get a better game experience would most likely give a better result. The game developers have their own conferences where they share, so if somebody in a studio ended up doing a presentation at these ones, it would also get the word out and about.

There are other games, but I am not a big FPS gamer, so I googled and this came up 


But we would need a couple of things

1. Establishing contact with the different game development studios
2. Somebody to go and do a demo, shake hands and talk with them. Video, I assume would be less effective.

If this something we should try, I can help out with the first point, but the second one probably needs local bufferbloat evangelists.

  IF we're heading on to gaming, perhaps attacking a huge vendor such as Valve's Steam. I have no idea how approachable they're of course.

  As for FPS gaming, I can tell you that the most prolific gamers will go to great lenghts to optimize their experience. They are far easier to convince to flash a router, modify windows drivers parameters, change broadband providers then the bigger audiance. As soon as others notice this "unfair" advantage they begin petitioning the game developers so that the "advantage" comes baked in rather than be a special recipe.


--
Best regards / Mvh
Jan Pedro Tumusok



_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

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