From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail.lang.hm (unknown [66.167.227.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3099B3CB47; Tue, 28 Mar 2023 16:37:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dlang-mobile (unknown [10.2.2.69]) by mail.lang.hm (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29DE181469; Tue, 28 Mar 2023 13:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 13:37:42 -0700 (PDT) From: David Lang To: rjmcmahon cc: Frantisek Borsik , Larry Press , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat , dan , David Lang , libreqos , Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <81945e3138c8a33a83ecd401778a2bf7@rjmcmahon.com> Message-ID: <32p0n880-7737-9q9p-4s2o-10nr071os6r7@ynat.uz> References: <27aea5070eeb1b1535f3e75489295feb@rjmcmahon.com> <81945e3138c8a33a83ecd401778a2bf7@rjmcmahon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="228850167-342230384-1680035862=:8745" Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Starlink] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 20:37:44 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --228850167-342230384-1680035862=:8745 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT https://sifinetworks.com/residential/cities/simi-valley-ca/ I'm due to get it to my area Q2 (or so). we're a suburb outside LA, but 100k+ people so not tiny. David Lang On Tue, 28 Mar 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: > There are municipal broadband projects. Most are in rural areas partially > funded by the federal government via the USDA. Glasgow started a few decades > ago. Similar to LUS in Lafayette, LA. https://www.usda.gov/broadband > > Rural areas get a lot of federal money for things, a la the farm bill which > also pays for food stamps instituted as part of the New Deal after the Great > Depression. > > https://sustainableagriculture.net/our-work/campaigns/fbcampaign/what-is-the-farm-bill/ > > None of this is really relevant to the vast majority of our urban populations > that get broadband from investor-owned companies. These companies don't > receive federal subsidies though sometimes they get access to municipal > revenue bonds when doing city infrastructures. > > Bob >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-mitchell-79078b5 and the like >> are doing a pretty good job (given the circumstances) here in the US. >> At least, that’s my understanding of his work. >> >> All the best, >> >> Frank >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik >> >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 [2] >> >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 [3] >> >> Skype: casioa5302ca >> >> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com >> >> On 28 March 2023 at 7:47:33 PM, rjmcmahon (rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com) >> wrote: >> >>> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get this >>> (structural separation) right. >>> >>> Pre-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed spectrum to >>> the >>> major media companies and placed a news obligation on them for these >>> OTA >>> rights. A society can't run a democracy well without quality and >>> factual >>> information to the constituents. Sadly, contract carriage got rid of >>> >>> that news as a public service obligation as predicted by Eli Noam. >>> http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Hence we get >>> January >>> 6th and an insurrection. >>> >>> It takes a staff of 300 to produce 30 minutes of news three times a >>> day. >>> The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this >>> obligation >>> for a community access channel and a small studio, and annual >>> franchise >>> fees. History has shown this is insufficient for a city to provide >>> quality news to its citizens. Community access channels failed >>> miserably. >>> >>> Another requirement was two cables so there would be "competition" >>> in >>> the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of natural >>> monopoly >>> both in the last mile and in negotiating broadcast rights (mostly >>> for >>> sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. NBC for the >>> >>> Olympics, and only one last mile winner. That's been proven >>> empirically >>> in the U.S. >>> >>> Now cities are dependent on those franchise fees for their budgets. >>> And >>> the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly the FCC >>> that >>> regulates all of this where they care more about Janet Jackson's >>> breast >>> than providing accurate news to help a democracy function well. >>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy >>> >>> >>> It gets worse as people are moving to unicast networks for their >>> "news." >>> But we're really not getting news at all, we're gravitating to >>> emotional >>> validations per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily provide >>> this >>> because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment providers >>> claim >>> they're doing great engineering because they can carry "AI loads!!" >>> and >>> their stock goes up in value. This means ads & news feeds that >>> trigger >>> dopamine hits for addicts are driving the money flows. Which is a >>> sad >>> theme for undereducated populations. >>> >>> And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a public >>> >>> obligation to support those educations, which includes addiction >>> recovery programs, and the ability to think critically for >>> ourselves. >>> >>> Bob >>> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class "textbook": >>> >>> >> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html >>> >>> >>> [1] >>> Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success [1] >>> The Stokab report should be required reading for all local >>> government >>> officials. Stockholm is one of the top Internet cities in the >>> worl... >>> >>> cis471.blogspot.com [1] >>> >>> ------------------------- >>> >>> From: Starlink on behalf of >>> >>> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink >>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM >>> To: David Lang >>> Cc: dan ; Frantisek Borsik >>> ; libreqos >>> ; Dave Taht via Starlink >>> ; rjmcmahon >>> ; >>> bloat >>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure >>> w/Comcast chat >>> >>> Hi David, >>> >>> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang wrote: >>> >>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote: >>> >>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital >> communications infrastructure as life support critical. >> >>>> Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water >> (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is >> mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in >> that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different >> perspective. >> >>>> Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into >> communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other >> critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP >> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable >> way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the >> while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this >> is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has >> beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber >> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active component >> >> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management. >> (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these >> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life >> times of decades). >> >>> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing >> such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in many >> >> states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building such >> >> systems. >> >> A resistance that in the current system is understandable*... >> btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just think >> that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we want >> actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place to >> implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple ISPs >> running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There are two >> >> ways I see to address this structural problem: >> a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for >> "reasonable" prices >> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the >> access network >> >> None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we already >> see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a spanner >> >> into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, but will >> >> not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as would be >> possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My subjective >> preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would offer a >> level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do best, offer >> >> internet access service while not pushing the cost of the access >> network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow a >> fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to convert >> to FTTH first.... >> >> However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I understand >> it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up to >> >> the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network >> design in a future-proof way... >> >> Regards >> Sebastian >> >> *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, just >> that I can see why it is happening. >> >>> David Lang >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$ >> >> >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] >> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html >> >> >> >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] http://cis471.blogspot.com >> [2] tel:+421919416714 >> [3] tel:+420775230885 > --228850167-342230384-1680035862=:8745--