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* [Bloat] PhD thesis with results related to buffering needs on variable-capacity links
@ 2023-01-03  9:57 Bjørn Ivar Teigen
  2023-01-03 15:08 ` Michael Richardson
  2023-01-03 23:52 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 5+ messages in thread
From: Bjørn Ivar Teigen @ 2023-01-03  9:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bloat

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Hi everyone,

I defended my PhD in December. I hope some of the results are interesting
to the bufferbloat community.

The title is "Opportunities and Limitations in Network Quality
Optimization: Quality Attenuation Models of WiFi Network Variability"
Full text here: https://www.duo.uio.no/handle/10852/98385

Here is the abstract:

The topic of this thesis is the performance of computer networks as
measured by latency and packet loss.

The maximum capacity, also known as bandwidth, of computer networks has
been steadily improving for decades. As more capacity becomes available,
new and higher bandwidth applications emerge, further increasing demand for
network resources. Performance in terms of latency and packet loss has not
seen the same regular improvement. Many applications convey real-time
interactions, and these depend on low latency and low packet loss for
optimal performance.

Optimizing network latency is a complex task. Physical transmission time,
scheduling, queuing, and interactions between traffic sources can all
contribute to the latency we observe. The challenge of reducing latency in
the Internet has received increasing attention in recent years. This
attention has led to successful solutions to several issues causing
latency. Other problems remain open despite these efforts.

This thesis aims to extend our understanding of WiFi networks through the
lens of latency and packet loss performance. We approach this using the
quality attenuation metric. Quality attenuation is a way of combining
latency and packet loss into a single variable. A quality attenuation value
consists of a latency distribution combined with the probability of packet
loss.

The thesis begins by investigating which performance issues are most
prevalent in today's WiFi networks. We show that both queuing latency and
the WiFi protocol specification itself are significant contributors. By
building a model of the WiFi protocol behavior we quantify the performance
of the protocol in terms of quality attenuation. We find that significant
performance variability is an inherent consequence of the protocol design.
Having quantified how variable WiFi links are, we explore the consequences
of this intrinsic variability for the performance of end-to-end congestion
control algorithms running over WiFi.

Because of the intrinsic variability of WiFi, achieving stable, low-latency
networking with WiFi will require innovation on many levels of the network
stack. In particular, we prove that capacity-seeking traffic can not
achieve both high utilization and low quality attenuation over a typical
WiFi network unless WiFi networks become much more predictable than they
are today. We hope that the methods and results presented in this thesis
will hasten the arrival of the low-latency Internet.

Best regards,
-- 
Bjørn Ivar Teigen
Head of Research
+47 47335952 | bjorn@domos.no <name@domos.no> | www.domos.no

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* Re: [Bloat] PhD thesis with results related to buffering needs on variable-capacity links
  2023-01-03  9:57 [Bloat] PhD thesis with results related to buffering needs on variable-capacity links Bjørn Ivar Teigen
@ 2023-01-03 15:08 ` Michael Richardson
  2023-01-03 16:41   ` Bjørn Ivar Teigen
  2023-01-03 23:52 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread
From: Michael Richardson @ 2023-01-03 15:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Ivar_Teigen?=; +Cc: bloat

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Thank you for sharing your thesis!

Bjørn Ivar Teigen via Bloat wrote:
    > The thesis begins by investigating which performance issues are most
    > prevalent in today's WiFi networks. We show that both queuing latency
    > and the WiFi protocol specification itself are significant
    > contributors. By building a model of the WiFi protocol behavior we
    > quantify the performance of the protocol in terms of quality
    > attenuation. We find that significant performance variability is an
    > inherent consequence of the protocol design.

I guess that your thesis is mostly technical.
(I haven't clicked on the link yet)

I wonder if there is work that might occur from the business department end
of things.  Why do we have 15 years of WiFi optimization, which seem to be
taking us further away from low latency.  Are the new protocols actually
improving the situation for the end consumer?  My impression is no.
Nobody notices because the quality is so unpredictable.




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* Re: [Bloat] PhD thesis with results related to buffering needs on variable-capacity links
  2023-01-03 15:08 ` Michael Richardson
@ 2023-01-03 16:41   ` Bjørn Ivar Teigen
  2023-01-04  7:08     ` Taraldsen Erik
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread
From: Bjørn Ivar Teigen @ 2023-01-03 16:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Michael Richardson; +Cc: bloat

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Hi Michael,

On Tue, 3 Jan 2023 at 16:08, Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca> wrote:

>
> Thank you for sharing your thesis!
>
> Bjørn Ivar Teigen via Bloat wrote:
>     > The thesis begins by investigating which performance issues are most
>     > prevalent in today's WiFi networks. We show that both queuing latency
>     > and the WiFi protocol specification itself are significant
>     > contributors. By building a model of the WiFi protocol behavior we
>     > quantify the performance of the protocol in terms of quality
>     > attenuation. We find that significant performance variability is an
>     > inherent consequence of the protocol design.
>
> I guess that your thesis is mostly technical.
> (I haven't clicked on the link yet)
>
You are right. It is focused on analyzing models of the WiFi MAC layer to
calculate how good (or bad!) latency and packet loss gets in various
scenarios, and how that latency and packet loss in turn affects congestion
control algorithms.

>
> I wonder if there is work that might occur from the business department end
> of things.  Why do we have 15 years of WiFi optimization, which seem to be
> taking us further away from low latency.  Are the new protocols actually
> improving the situation for the end consumer?  My impression is no.
> Nobody notices because the quality is so unpredictable.
>

Through my work in Domos I have at least some insight into this. My
impression is that it starts with business decisions, where the focus has
been on maximum throughput numbers because that's what consumers think they
want. It also takes effort, focus, and (most importantly) money to remove
bufferbloat, so unless there is sufficient incentives from the commercial
side of things it doesn't happen.
I do think there is increasing awareness of latency (under load) as an
important factor for user experience. We certainly see that from some of
the (dare I say thought-leading) ISPs we're working with.

I think there's hope we will see more good low-latency solutions deployed
in the near future.

Cheers,
-- 
Bjørn Ivar Teigen
Head of Research
+47 47335952 | bjorn@domos.no <name@domos.no> | www.domos.no

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* Re: [Bloat] PhD thesis with results related to buffering needs on variable-capacity links
  2023-01-03  9:57 [Bloat] PhD thesis with results related to buffering needs on variable-capacity links Bjørn Ivar Teigen
  2023-01-03 15:08 ` Michael Richardson
@ 2023-01-03 23:52 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread
From: Toke Høiland-Jørgensen @ 2023-01-03 23:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bjørn Ivar Teigen, bloat

Bjørn Ivar Teigen via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> writes:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I defended my PhD in December. I hope some of the results are interesting
> to the bufferbloat community.
>
> The title is "Opportunities and Limitations in Network Quality
> Optimization: Quality Attenuation Models of WiFi Network Variability"
> Full text here: https://www.duo.uio.no/handle/10852/98385

Congratulations! Looks interesting, I look forward to looking at it in
more detail :)

-Toke

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread

* Re: [Bloat] PhD thesis with results related to buffering needs on variable-capacity links
  2023-01-03 16:41   ` Bjørn Ivar Teigen
@ 2023-01-04  7:08     ` Taraldsen Erik
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread
From: Taraldsen Erik @ 2023-01-04  7:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bjørn Ivar Teigen, Michael Richardson; +Cc: bloat

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Through my work in Domos I have at least some insight into this. My impression is that it starts with business decisions, where the focus has been on maximum throughput numbers because that's what consumers think they want. It also takes effort, focus, and (most importantly) money to remove bufferbloat, so unless there is sufficient incentives from the commercial side of things it doesn't happen.
I do think there is increasing awareness of latency (under load) as an important factor for user experience. We certainly see that from some of the (dare I say thought-leading) ISPs we're working with.

I think there's hope we will see more good low-latency solutions deployed in the near future.

I’m hoping that you get good traction and market visibility on the latency with your ISP work.  Perhaps that will inspire the management in some other ISP’s in you region…

-Erik




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2023-01-03  9:57 [Bloat] PhD thesis with results related to buffering needs on variable-capacity links Bjørn Ivar Teigen
2023-01-03 15:08 ` Michael Richardson
2023-01-03 16:41   ` Bjørn Ivar Teigen
2023-01-04  7:08     ` Taraldsen Erik
2023-01-03 23:52 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen

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