From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BB783CB37 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 07:56:36 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1679313394; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=7kYr9blDrBGtUOZP2NLSGhvP7Iw5HpQCOjoOleOq0mw=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=f8awuwIZVdifaXNuHp2EhRENRNrkGDU+g6prn5nRCOQ/tDPaCsgNMjDvhq5SbVb5R iUdUSoJFZXa342q2J56QG4JmlGUasWipHuHZplsLlwubGKAaZcCz/QMjkgKOCdY66w 07u+bDUZN4UeagYCJ5cwuNmWg+LgShNpciu3KsslROpYOdNCH0Cd4w3DpZbl3lmjAc tdjO02/HXWR2ZdMVxoXbjSPbfqB8aEF1KQTuOhUD9pZLVofZVazgE07QBtGYUbyJB+ cN5GqHPztmOWsb11QxVc9nQa2ZN9NR978Ay37tpfrWvjhSmx05yJQuOJpU97Y1SdST Uw1mc1qyFmqkw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M5wPb-1pYShF2ONv-007XuH; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 12:56:34 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.2\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <0DC6B63C-41BF-4741-AAB2-904B5087B6F0@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 12:56:34 +0100 Cc: bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3B62CE51-1CC7-42B2-86D1-F952F0D24733@gmx.de> References: <0DC6B63C-41BF-4741-AAB2-904B5087B6F0@gmail.com> To: Rich Brown X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.2) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:jFlCDD0aQsopZivu1v0Q0iBeF88wBTUJbP7C9vNwXy2ISX6hxZZ 0FLxOgyoMjpHs+2N2jCFn/Yw/UqNBy87QHNcrEy7d+nYjTJlvyTj16Np7VJFVJCRNf0k8Nx C4gkiGvlwDkiqnM/wytXEGQiujW8OjTjnfG2+YbLYSh1t1K/yk+FbmNfKRoJMJR8qwYOE3y f3uKF5Dg7fFHiVmL2v1yA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:f2oprEOzwEI=;UslyTO3ysa/HHk25Br7E1VwXI8q gia1m6H3VlByyzD0hLmesyMceN7yjOicol2tORLy9i2y7qVVndGdti4fmZKOUOfkMHSFwOaXj f9SD8587eLaNFck6BPmg0rhj7O4dYaA+UJJhFZteoU1pMBFsjD+1rll7dYYJS1yFZfw2RLBfu jMzohXMEu3CVr+C6Wqudl4WKiqCVt0hmM1w/5/dNLUigrfpDGEd150iI6ohRy71jLN/ViKGjc zZzOcu2cGVktFVlsBXyLfkcEHAdDHcvJ4SGeMmqthYhl06KxHhMdwOpybC4yhf+vLi+D3ldHy z9DdpLv/wg/4B0G07A90OpiT45VeIsWtUfDIIekKeMODlgpE5L0P2vMiiJerRZridKyN2o+3B AJuP4+uO9qeWXrduYBl6avOLBSMj5X+q2PSc9vuz2LOUBlEillLIfDp1twWDs82n/T6AISi+B 5mHDXVf4xpLD6IZbCw1yn2W5bS1dSqR/hEeafw/ThrIccjzX/8jlbK3bErAwOwVXJoTVazazH KAXVuckp3k84Om8NHXmQ7/u1j3O/1RzL21/nKcYK17DukGUWRot/px6je56AdLhZ1qNMC1AOg rItxdMwQyXCIjqYLAXGuDw5qysB7RzvxkrAnoFTcnEJwUWlW83wR+wVA1CR+gG3xJiWDgXSUp +euQjR9wMO92rW4miTTOZovswDIInWpT76yA5+myFmzFWknZkgX42t/VoNqF7z/rsv5xW6o/5 bKpBZW2m9nF/wD+xjqwXFdLhslOd3cb8hZftS4V0iePluUBpfRrhLRTgLma6JGUGM1U56HvB8 5kn4LPHZzeW3dFfbU7CbJYi3PpjJqqZXaapGdEjOCKhARIUD3XP/rMC/V71UZgorQ6xAZfG+j M3T81alI1BOzZkJrmRxFlacbSnStQJVszI/m86mcFFnWCc4S4G0iuukSI0TxdahMczL3gttgT vTKfWBJD4mSNGt/4Gn9B4K/m70A= Subject: Re: [Bloat] On metrics X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 11:56:36 -0000 So over here in Germany we already have something similar. ISPs are required by law and regulation to supply potential customers = with the following standardized information before closing a contract: example "Product information sheet" = h++ps://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/Telek= ommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Anbieterpflichten/Kundenschutz/Tran= sparenzma=C3=9Fnahmen/templates_for_information_sheets.pdf;jsessionid=3D47= 5EBAEFFD5ADDD7D3E30FDBF9CA29C2?__blob=3DpublicationFile&v=3D1 instructions how to create a "Product information sheet" = h++ps://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/Telek= ommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Anbieterpflichten/Kundenschutz/Tran= sparenzma=C3=9Fnahmen/Instruction_for_drawing_up_PIS.pdf;jsessionid=3D475E= BAEFFD5ADDD7D3E30FDBF9CA29C2?__blob=3DpublicationFile&v=3D1 The national regulatory agency also established a (somewhat complicated = and time-intensive) process to check whether ISPs actually deliver the = contractually promised throughput (and they still ignore latency which = clearly should be improved). Customers who show that ISPs doe not deliver can opt either: a) get an immediate right to cancel the contract b) opt for getting the price reduced proportional to the amount of = contractual fulfillment (for the duration of the existing contract, = after that the ISP can opt not to offer only lower speedgrades) c) sue the ISP in court (as before) This will not help in conditions like Rich's, but it generally helps in = getting the whole market get an understanding that contracts do matter. = (ISPs are free to only promise those numbers they see fit, they are only = held accountable to actually fulfill their commitments). I would expect that for a plan-by-plan information something that gives = reliable information about generally achievable capacity (and preferably = latency under load) would be helpful. Especially when combined with an = official web-site that step-by-step explains what kind of capacity and = (worst case latency) different use-cases require. That is have the label not try to explain everything but have it refer = to a well-written web site that helps to put the numbers into = perspective. But I might be biased the the method I know and there might be better = ways. Regards Sebastian P.S.: I know some here operate ISPS and hence see this from a different = angle than end-customers, but the measurement procedure is pretty fair = for ISPs and customers (and arduous enough that folks are unlikely to = run a measurement campaign just for fun or to pester an ISP). > On Mar 20, 2023, at 12:30, Rich Brown via Bloat = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Mar 19, 2023, at 11:03 PM, bloat-request@lists.bufferbloat.net = wrote: >>=20 >>> Consumers really need things like published performance specs so = they can >>> assemble their needs like an a la carte menu. What do you do, = what=E2=80=99s >>> important to you, what details support that need, and they need that = in a >>> simple way. Like a little app that says =E2=80=9Chow many 1080p = TVs or 4K TVs, >>> how many gaming consoles, do you take zoom calls or VoIP/phone = calls. Do >>> you send large emails, videos, or pictures.=E2=80=9D >>=20 >> The problem is that these needs really are not that heavy. Among my = ISP=20 >> connections, I have a 8/1 dsl connection, even when I fail over to = that, I can=20 >> run my 4k tv + a couple other HD TVs + email (although it's at the = ragged edge,=20 >> trying to play 4k at 2x speed can hiccup, and zoom calls can stutter = when large=20 >> emails/downloads flow) >=20 > I want to second David Lang's comment. I live in a small rural NH town = that was stuck at DSL prior to a local company raising the money to = install fiber to all premises.=20 >=20 > Before the fiber came in, I had 7mbps/768kbps service. If I wanted to = bond two circuits, I could get 15/1mbps. But many neighbors had = 3mbps/768kbps - or worse - so they were basically unserved. We = frequently saw people parked outside our public library after hours to = get internet. (And yes, a good router improved things. I told a lot of = people about the IQrouter that turned the unusable service into merely = slow.) >=20 > But there is a huge swath of rural US that is in the same situation, = with zero or one provider of dreadful service. >=20 > What's the value of a "nutrition label"? >=20 > a) It's meaningless for those rural customers. They have no choice = beyond "take it or leave it."=20 >=20 > b) For the lucky ones where alternative providers compete, the = proposed label does provide a standardized format that lays out = purported speeds and the the pricing tiers (including overage charges). = I don't think I'd ever believe the latency numbers. >=20 > c) Coming back to metrics: we can't look to a federally-agreed-to = Nutrition Label to give guidance for which provider offers the right = choice for your mix of gadgets. The most important advice I can imagine = is "get a router that manages your latency", and your problems will go = away, or at least be *much* better. >=20 > Rich > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat