From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp127.ord1d.emailsrvr.com (smtp127.ord1d.emailsrvr.com [184.106.54.127]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAB493B2A4; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 12:12:09 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=g001.emailsrvr.com; s=20190322-9u7zjiwi; t=1613063529; bh=2Jm2ID4nEwx304hvyCijG6Z1u9m3MorYF8Lj7C1b1Xw=; h=Subject:From:Date:To:From; b=KPPRHwTMu7YOQuxUALHuNw6C9BTDZOyDL+9o1oh/PRr0So5MIqOxSEw76wIOyhj9p Gjs/y0rIs16fuWXatsQ/OTPhzFRj4bCj3IiVsG0rSUv17G9he7bC48puAmsF33sPAf 3ZmeaWBB/5FcQs/aSxeOws+oEJR+pLTAFpZ7yzHE= X-Auth-ID: jf@jonathanfoulkes.com Received: by smtp8.relay.ord1d.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: jf-AT-jonathanfoulkes.com) with ESMTPSA id E8E60C0154; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 12:12:08 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_56C4E974-C8EC-4E91-B9BF-4F1ADD980866" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Jonathan Foulkes X-Priority: 3 (Normal) In-Reply-To: <1612903504.690718796@apps.rackspace.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 12:12:08 -0500 Cc: Dave Taht , cerowrt-devel , bloat Message-Id: <3C663278-1082-4D81-8BAD-E72B423DB4C0@jonathanfoulkes.com> References: <1612903504.690718796@apps.rackspace.com> To: "David P. Reed" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Classification-ID: 3551fd09-8ff8-4ede-adcd-0b3800a47050-1-1 Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] cringley rants well on bloat X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 17:12:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_56C4E974-C8EC-4E91-B9BF-4F1ADD980866 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > Perhaps that is our problem? We are hallucinating and disconnected = from reality? Don=E2=80=99t think so, I have plenty of data points that prove it = exists on hundreds and hundreds of ISPs, with more added daily. > And some of the commenters seem to want to insult Jim Gettys, too, by = name, saying that he "got it wrong". Yes, that particularly pissed me off. Many of the folks involved in = fixing this issue are under-recognized.=20 Might I suggest some PR, like a press release on major releases of key = components, such as Cake, or when OpenWrt drops a major point release = that ingrates new bloat-mitigation features. Since OpenWrt 21.x is about = to drop, the draft should circulate in the coming weeks. Cheers, Jonathan Foulkes > On Feb 9, 2021, at 3:45 PM, David P. Reed wrote: >=20 > Hmmm... good post, I guess. But aren't WiFi 6 and StarLink being built = by people who have proved their genius by being billionaires? > =20 > It's sad, though, to read through the comments. There's a whole = 'nother world out there now. > Apparently the world of commenters are largely convinced bufferbloat = doesn't exist, and never did. > =20 > Perhaps that is our problem? We are hallucinating and disconnected = from reality? > =20 > I constantly hear that IETF attendees don't believe it is a problem. = And folks like Andy Bechtolsheim get loads of VC money to create = Ethernet 10+ GigE switches that are full of buffers, therefore creating = lots of lag under load in datacenters where they buy this gear because = Andy is famous. AndyB's company even produce white papers that claim = more buffers improves performance by keeping all the links running at = wirespeed (the hell with latency). > =20 > And some of the commenters seem to want to insult Jim Gettys, too, by = name, saying that he "got it wrong". > =20 > I've concluded that COVID-19 reflects a general infection of brains = with some kind of arrogant ignorance, including many of the folks who = get boondoggles from their company to attend IETF. > =20 > But it may be the opposite, after all. Maybe we folks don't understand = what is true in this real Bizarro World, and bufferbloat is a hoax like = COVID. Q is probably right, and we are probably all pederasts like = Hillary Clinton. > =20 > =20 > On Monday, February 8, 2021 8:45pm, "Dave Taht" = said: >=20 > > = https://www.cringely.com/2021/02/04/2021-prediction-4-wifi-6-is-a-bust-for= -now-as-bufferbloat-returns-thanks-to-isp-greed/ > >=20 > >=20 > > -- > > "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over = public > > relations, for Mother Nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman > >=20 > > dave@taht.net CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: = 1-831-435-0729 > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat --Apple-Mail=_56C4E974-C8EC-4E91-B9BF-4F1ADD980866 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Perhaps that = is our problem? We are hallucinating and disconnected from = reality?

Don=E2=80=99t think so, I have plenty of data points = that prove it exists on hundreds and hundreds of ISPs, with more added = daily.

And some of the commenters seem to want to = insult Jim Gettys, too, by name, saying that he "got it = wrong".

Yes, that particularly = pissed me off. Many of the folks involved in fixing this issue are = under-recognized. 

Might I suggest some PR, = like a press release on major releases of key components, such as Cake, = or when OpenWrt drops a major point release that ingrates new = bloat-mitigation features. Since OpenWrt 21.x is about to drop, the = draft should circulate in the coming weeks.

Cheers,

Jonathan= Foulkes

On Feb 9, 2021, at 3:45 PM, David P. Reed = <dpreed@deepplum.com> wrote:

Hmmm... good post, I guess. But aren't WiFi 6 and StarLink = being built by people who have proved their genius by being = billionaires?

 

It's sad, though, to read through = the comments. There's a whole 'nother world out there now.
Apparently the world of = commenters are largely convinced bufferbloat doesn't exist, and never = did.

 

Perhaps that is our problem? = We are hallucinating and disconnected from reality?

 

I constantly hear that IETF attendees don't = believe it is a problem. And folks like Andy Bechtolsheim get loads of = VC money to create Ethernet 10+ GigE switches that are full of buffers, = therefore creating lots of lag under load in datacenters where they buy = this gear because Andy is famous. AndyB's company even produce white = papers that claim more buffers improves performance by keeping all the = links running at wirespeed (the hell with latency).

 

And some of the commenters seem to want to = insult Jim Gettys, too, by name, saying that he "got it wrong".

 

I've concluded that COVID-19 reflects a general = infection of brains with some kind of arrogant ignorance, including many = of the folks who get boondoggles from their company to attend = IETF.

 

But it may be the opposite, after = all. Maybe we folks don't understand what is true in this real Bizarro = World, and bufferbloat is a hoax like COVID. Q is probably right, and we = are probably all pederasts like Hillary Clinton.

 

 

On Monday, February 8, 2021 8:45pm, "Dave Taht" = <dave.taht@gmail.com> said:

> https://www.cringely.com/2021/02/04/2021-prediction-4-wifi-6-is= -a-bust-for-now-as-bufferbloat-returns-thanks-to-isp-greed/
>
>
> --
> "For a successful technology, reality must take = precedence over public
> relations, for Mother Nature = cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman
>
>= dave@taht.net <Dave = T=C3=A4ht> CTO, TekLibre, LLC Tel: 1-831-435-0729
> = _______________________________________________
> = Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
>
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

= --Apple-Mail=_56C4E974-C8EC-4E91-B9BF-4F1ADD980866--