From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp120.iad.emailsrvr.com (smtp120.iad.emailsrvr.com [207.97.245.120]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by huchra.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F49C21F1A6 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2013 03:58:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp52.relay.iad1a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id EBFFE2401B6; Thu, 21 Feb 2013 06:58:47 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: OK Received: by smtp52.relay.iad1a.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: ford-AT-isoc.org) with ESMTPSA id 13D9F240B7F; Thu, 21 Feb 2013 06:58:44 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Matthew Ford In-Reply-To: <21027.1360683218@sandelman.ca> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 11:58:40 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <42748A6D-5BE5-4B9A-8104-7063231875B2@isoc.org> References: <21027.1360683218@sandelman.ca> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: Dan York , bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Bloat] bloat in the industry X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 11:58:50 -0000 I'll note that ISOC has been pursuing work in this area for some time: = http://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2012/11/its-still-latency-stupid We're now firmly at the point of figuring out what follow-up activities = to pursue in 2013, and suggestions such as yours below are timely. Other suggestions are also very welcome, probably to me off-list is = best. Mat On 12 Feb 2013, at 15:33, Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 > I had a recent conversation with a person active in the IETF transport > area about bufferbloat. I was interested in what the transport area > and the IETF, and the ISOC, could do to bring the issue of bufferbloat > in devices to the appropriate places in vendor management. >=20 > Said person said that *they* had no problems reaching the CTOs of > various major router vendors, and that they were responsive to the > question of bufferbloat. Great, but I don't know those people = myself, > and most of us do not. =20 >=20 > It also doesn't get the message out to people who work at medium and > smaller sized vendors, or to organizations that do not think of > themselves as being in layer-3/4 at all. (Gigabit layer-2 switch = chipset > vendors for instance) =20 >=20 > I wear a number of hats. One of them is CTO and Network Architect of = a=20 > boutique VoIP provider in Montreal. On Thursday I will have a = telecon > with a large vendor about a new multi-protoco access switch. This > will be the upstream device, and getting bufferbloat under control is > critical. >=20 > I know that on Thursday the sales person and the sales engineer will = be > unable to spell bufferbloat. I hope they will understand "AQM"... > I've raised this with them before, but their organization has not yet > socialized this issue throughout their ranks.=20 >=20 > What *I* need is a place, perhaps at isoc.org, where key contacts on = the > bufferbloat issue at each vendor can be kept, and I could refer sales > person from vendor X to bufferbloat expert at vendor X. =20 > It needs to be vaguely wiki-ish and forum-ish (as much as I hate > forums), so that even if we can't get vendor Z to fix their product, = we > can at least share information about what did work and what didn't = work. >=20 > (Bandwidth limits for instance, usually don't work even if they are > possible, for VPN tunnels) >=20 > Furthermore, when I encounter a vendor who is not on the list, I want = to > be able to refer them to a place where I can use an "appeal to = authority" > to get them to actually make their CTO pay attention. =20 >=20 > I have CC'ed Dan York, who likely isn't on this list. > I am thinking a new "deploy 360" category... >=20 > --=20 > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh = networks [=20 > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network = architect [=20 > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on = rails [=20 > =09 > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat