From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lj1-x235.google.com (mail-lj1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D4D13B29D for ; Sun, 16 May 2021 17:33:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x235.google.com with SMTP id v6so4855727ljj.5 for ; Sun, 16 May 2021 14:33:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Yn1QhBOIri2diW2RpYO/0N+4f2gf0Was0cuwrE5fvkg=; b=h153URu1SQrtxdxjUiPMC/zGrCMlPg8dgBv+lcJHL4h7qON5mSnwXRvsTWmzNYJMNj A3n1uvF2viFS1b7gzDIzDceAMsLPAACD+qg4gkwLHq9uB8oIXHLtjHgJE/1dMRbaKlqn nvNwar/0Rq8RQrmJ5ZzC6fFacNp/y9MLaTb/fztjPtidSR5tN9akKee2rBEY+SFTfAz0 m0lP32NnuVzR1Aw5X8afrNsanrSCI2w5e8yO5Xz5VqPxb+O+V4pziFbQ78GkaVUhd8uv qztZcnMkqDa1h54mpuimA2E1aQL9BgmuY2R01bvyJPomiGMamlztw2h6SZE7LmSBsZLN FHng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Yn1QhBOIri2diW2RpYO/0N+4f2gf0Was0cuwrE5fvkg=; b=TR8poHw+bhqb+NwvQsvgKCxuiE5FNKmAlVS9e25LSFA1988CZpMubm/IoAl7+PgNgA ZoVy4nPL8E2yyDh7DLTr21TC+aw33V6gilgq2W+jAa6XooDdcF9Wtp57tzek4Q3PUmI6 Y4p8cQJJog6OSIgmN1PtahfCABcSVZRWBVS/TjXmUgrZkuNS6x5u2T6FVRatBnNc6cTH 1yamlYV6UAvJmI2/BLgFPotRCnRx/eUAiKu4j3BQuw2V343YflJQ1rsvf++ocRHvbI0X RE/GBQ+ADiMIZEwZDLVUYemKAvfXI8yT6y7WHNrvPiVcxmup09J0h7VRF3LWRt/jT6TV UyhA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532kC8Ln66VKjPycUNdg65pwdMD+67i6EAWxDdCckcGgCEZkaP9m Ziaj2AdrDRot3aczx/sqH3c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzzTsckpcuyWh7R3A5YSxv80W8WWZHWjc2aFQqGcAORjWOQuzOSzzcRAYTJsLWGna+Xor0sxQ== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b4f3:: with SMTP id s19mr45825409ljm.229.1621200802246; Sun, 16 May 2021 14:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jonathartonsmbp.lan (37-136-237-77.rev.dnainternet.fi. [37.136.237.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a20sm2661014ljn.94.2021.05.16.14.33.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 16 May 2021 14:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.7\)) From: Jonathan Morton In-Reply-To: <15155.1621197853@localhost> Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 00:33:20 +0300 Cc: john , bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <42DC54D2-AC15-455F-B4B1-E97BE05CD00D@gmail.com> References: <6d93a3cf-7907-c50b-7903-79bd638b5766@indexexchange.com> <487B5EAD-6FEE-482C-919E-D1F1B7166530@gmail.com> <15155.1621197853@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.7) Subject: Re: [Bloat] Terminology for Laypeople X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 May 2021 21:33:23 -0000 > On 16 May, 2021, at 11:44 pm, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > Your analogy is definitely the result of optimizing for batches rather = than latency. I really don't know how you got there from here. What I described is = basically a pipeline process, not batch processing. The delay is caused = by the fact that the product already in the pipeline has already been = bought by the hardware store, and thus contractually the loggers can't = divert it to an individual customer like me. You can think of one bag of firewood as representing a packet of data. = I've requested a particular number of such bags to fill my trailer. = Until my trailer is full, my request is not satisfied. The hardware = store is just taking whatever manufacturing capacity is available; their = warehouse is *huge*. We can explore the analogy further by changing some of the conditions: 1: If the felling of trees was the bottleneck of the operation, such = that the trimming, chopping and bagging could all keep up with it, then = the delay to me would be much less because I wouldn't have to wait for = various backlogs (of complete trees, branches, and piles of firewood) = belonging to the hardware store to be dealt with first. Processing each = tree doesn't take very long, there's just an awful lot of them in this = patch of forest. 1a: If the foreman told the felling team to take a tea break when a = backlog built up, that would have nearly the same effect. That's what = an AQM does. 2: If the hardware store wasn't involved at all, the bags of firewood = would be waiting, ready to be sold. I'd be done in the time it took to = load the bags into my trailer. 3: If the loggers sold the *output* of the process to the hardware = store, rather than having them reserve it at the head of the pipeline, = then I might only have to wait for the throughput of of the operation to = produce what I needed, and load it directly into my trailer. *That* = would be just-in-time manufacturing. - Jonathan Morton=