* [Bloat] the future of tcp - train wreck or evolution?
@ 2022-06-16 2:35 Dave Taht
2022-06-16 5:48 ` Michael Welzl
0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Dave Taht @ 2022-06-16 2:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bloat
as seen in 2008.
https://slideplayer.com/slide/5747321/
Regrettably all the answers on slide 13 are elided.
--
FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] the future of tcp - train wreck or evolution?
2022-06-16 2:35 [Bloat] the future of tcp - train wreck or evolution? Dave Taht
@ 2022-06-16 5:48 ` Michael Welzl
2022-06-16 7:22 ` Sebastian Moeller
2022-06-16 16:39 ` Dave Taht
0 siblings, 2 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Michael Welzl @ 2022-06-16 5:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dave Taht; +Cc: bloat
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… but I’m excited about slide 15 !
"Heat, CO2, and radioactive waste are becoming measurable by-products of TCP inefficiency
Fix TCP => Save the World!”
People don’t yet focus enough on this - and it’s not only relevant in a data center context. See also:
Michael Welzl: "Not a Trade-Off: On the Wi-Fi Energy Efficiency of Effective Internet Congestion Control", IEEE/IFIP WONS 2022, virtual, 30 March - 1 April 2022.
Preprint: https://folk.universitetetioslo.no/michawe/research/publications/wons2022_authors_version.pdf <https://folk.universitetetioslo.no/michawe/research/publications/wons2022_authors_version.pdf>
A couple of IETFs ago, I did sign up to present something along these lines at an ICCRG meeting, but I asked late and got squeezed into an “if time permits” slot; some day in the future I’ll ask for a “proper slot” to elaborate on this.
Cheers,
Michael
> On Jun 16, 2022, at 4:35 AM, Dave Taht via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> as seen in 2008.
>
> https://slideplayer.com/slide/5747321/
>
> Regrettably all the answers on slide 13 are elided.
>
>
> --
> FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] the future of tcp - train wreck or evolution?
2022-06-16 5:48 ` Michael Welzl
@ 2022-06-16 7:22 ` Sebastian Moeller
2022-06-16 7:27 ` Michael Welzl
2022-06-16 16:39 ` Dave Taht
1 sibling, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Moeller @ 2022-06-16 7:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Michael Welzl; +Cc: Dave Täht, bloat
HI MIchael,
> On Jun 16, 2022, at 07:48, Michael Welzl via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> … but I’m excited about slide 15 !
>
> "Heat, CO2, and radioactive waste are becoming measurable by-products of TCP inefficiency
> Fix TCP => Save the World!”
>
> People don’t yet focus enough on this -
The slide deck however omits presenting the evidence for that hypothesis...
> and it’s not only relevant in a data center context. See also:
>
> Michael Welzl: "Not a Trade-Off: On the Wi-Fi Energy Efficiency of Effective Internet Congestion Control", IEEE/IFIP WONS 2022, virtual, 30 March - 1 April 2022.
> Preprint: https://folk.universitetetioslo.no/michawe/research/publications/wons2022_authors_version.pdf
>
> A couple of IETFs ago, I did sign up to present something along these lines at an ICCRG meeting, but I asked late and got squeezed into an “if time permits” slot; some day in the future I’ll ask for a “proper slot” to elaborate on this.
Curious, should such an observation not look at the aggregate energy consumption of senders and receivers? And maybe also report the total energy consumption of those devices for reference to allow an estimate of how much "radioactive waste" can be easily avoided?
Mind you, I am not arguing that saving energy (even small amounts) is not desirable, I just want to see how that stacks up with the total energy consumed by those systems.
Regards
Sebastian
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
>
>
>
>> On Jun 16, 2022, at 4:35 AM, Dave Taht via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> as seen in 2008.
>>
>> https://slideplayer.com/slide/5747321/
>>
>> Regrettably all the answers on slide 13 are elided.
>>
>>
>> --
>> FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] the future of tcp - train wreck or evolution?
2022-06-16 7:22 ` Sebastian Moeller
@ 2022-06-16 7:27 ` Michael Welzl
0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Michael Welzl @ 2022-06-16 7:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Sebastian Moeller; +Cc: Dave Taht, bloat
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> On Jun 16, 2022, at 9:22 AM, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> HI MIchael,
>
>
>> On Jun 16, 2022, at 07:48, Michael Welzl via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
>>
>> … but I’m excited about slide 15 !
>>
>> "Heat, CO2, and radioactive waste are becoming measurable by-products of TCP inefficiency
>> Fix TCP => Save the World!”
>>
>> People don’t yet focus enough on this -
>
> The slide deck however omits presenting the evidence for that hypothesis...
>
>
>
>> and it’s not only relevant in a data center context. See also:
>>
>> Michael Welzl: "Not a Trade-Off: On the Wi-Fi Energy Efficiency of Effective Internet Congestion Control", IEEE/IFIP WONS 2022, virtual, 30 March - 1 April 2022.
>> Preprint: https://folk.universitetetioslo.no/michawe/research/publications/wons2022_authors_version.pdf <https://folk.universitetetioslo.no/michawe/research/publications/wons2022_authors_version.pdf>
>>
>> A couple of IETFs ago, I did sign up to present something along these lines at an ICCRG meeting, but I asked late and got squeezed into an “if time permits” slot; some day in the future I’ll ask for a “proper slot” to elaborate on this.
>
> Curious, should such an observation not look at the aggregate energy consumption of senders and receivers? And maybe also report the total energy consumption of those devices for reference to allow an estimate of how much "radioactive waste" can be easily avoided?
> Mind you, I am not arguing that saving energy (even small amounts) is not desirable, I just want to see how that stacks up with the total energy consumed by those systems.
I completely agree - one just needs to start somewhere. Baby steps :)
Cheers,
Michael
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] the future of tcp - train wreck or evolution?
2022-06-16 5:48 ` Michael Welzl
2022-06-16 7:22 ` Sebastian Moeller
@ 2022-06-16 16:39 ` Dave Taht
2022-06-16 20:23 ` Michael Welzl
1 sibling, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Dave Taht @ 2022-06-16 16:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Michael Welzl; +Cc: bloat
On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 10:48 PM Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no> wrote:
>
> … but I’m excited about slide 15 !
>
> "Heat, CO2, and radioactive waste are becoming measurable by-products of TCP inefficiency
> Fix TCP => Save the World!”
QUIC contributes 3x(?) more to global warming than TCP in these cases.
Btw, there's an interesting company attempting to put DCs underwater,
perhaps attached to old oil rigs or under windfarms, looking for their
first investment round, here, if you know anyone?
https://www.subseacloud.com/
I was a big jock cousteau fan back in the day.
Me, I've been mostly moving back to local applications, libreoffice is
a real joy compared to google docs, and I figure local apps are far,
far more power efficient than DCs are.
> People don’t yet focus enough on this - and it’s not only relevant in a data center context. See also:
>
> Michael Welzl: "Not a Trade-Off: On the Wi-Fi Energy Efficiency of Effective Internet Congestion Control", IEEE/IFIP WONS 2022, virtual, 30 March - 1 April 2022.
> Preprint: https://folk.universitetetioslo.no/michawe/research/publications/wons2022_authors_version.pdf
>
> A couple of IETFs ago, I did sign up to present something along these lines at an ICCRG meeting, but I asked late and got squeezed into an “if time permits” slot; some day in the future I’ll ask for a “proper slot” to elaborate on this.
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
>
>
>
> On Jun 16, 2022, at 4:35 AM, Dave Taht via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> as seen in 2008.
>
> https://slideplayer.com/slide/5747321/
>
> Regrettably all the answers on slide 13 are elided.
It was how clearly pugs saw things back then that was remarkable. I've
been really enjoying his twitter and blog ( https://akapugs.blog/)
lately. Also on a recent thread he pointed out this really excellent
computer history book:
https://twitter.com/aka_pugs/status/1537229947042820096
History does not repeat itself, but it rhymes.
>
>
> --
> FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>
>
--
FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] the future of tcp - train wreck or evolution?
2022-06-16 16:39 ` Dave Taht
@ 2022-06-16 20:23 ` Michael Welzl
0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Michael Welzl @ 2022-06-16 20:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dave Taht; +Cc: bloat
> On Jun 16, 2022, at 6:39 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 10:48 PM Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no> wrote:
>>
>> … but I’m excited about slide 15 !
>>
>> "Heat, CO2, and radioactive waste are becoming measurable by-products of TCP inefficiency
>> Fix TCP => Save the World!”
>
> QUIC contributes 3x(?) more to global warming than TCP in these cases.
Why?
Cheers,
Michael
> Btw, there's an interesting company attempting to put DCs underwater,
> perhaps attached to old oil rigs or under windfarms, looking for their
> first investment round, here, if you know anyone?
>
> https://www.subseacloud.com/
>
> I was a big jock cousteau fan back in the day.
>
> Me, I've been mostly moving back to local applications, libreoffice is
> a real joy compared to google docs, and I figure local apps are far,
> far more power efficient than DCs are.
>
>> People don’t yet focus enough on this - and it’s not only relevant in a data center context. See also:
>>
>> Michael Welzl: "Not a Trade-Off: On the Wi-Fi Energy Efficiency of Effective Internet Congestion Control", IEEE/IFIP WONS 2022, virtual, 30 March - 1 April 2022.
>> Preprint: https://folk.universitetetioslo.no/michawe/research/publications/wons2022_authors_version.pdf
>>
>> A couple of IETFs ago, I did sign up to present something along these lines at an ICCRG meeting, but I asked late and got squeezed into an “if time permits” slot; some day in the future I’ll ask for a “proper slot” to elaborate on this.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2022, at 4:35 AM, Dave Taht via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> as seen in 2008.
>>
>> https://slideplayer.com/slide/5747321/
>>
>> Regrettably all the answers on slide 13 are elided.
>
> It was how clearly pugs saw things back then that was remarkable. I've
> been really enjoying his twitter and blog ( https://akapugs.blog/)
> lately. Also on a recent thread he pointed out this really excellent
> computer history book:
> https://twitter.com/aka_pugs/status/1537229947042820096
>
> History does not repeat itself, but it rhymes.
>
>>
>>
>> --
>> FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
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2022-06-16 2:35 [Bloat] the future of tcp - train wreck or evolution? Dave Taht
2022-06-16 5:48 ` Michael Welzl
2022-06-16 7:22 ` Sebastian Moeller
2022-06-16 7:27 ` Michael Welzl
2022-06-16 16:39 ` Dave Taht
2022-06-16 20:23 ` Michael Welzl
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