From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76DD33B29D for ; Sat, 1 Feb 2025 12:06:14 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1738429572; x=1739034372; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=3X+xmpe78r735EIMz895MbIZab+Zx3L8dI75KACRc7o=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=L3nm00qVAqZNOXSWioVAOGVrlPMK+WLTk31dm6knWl86tooy1ov5S8VNduJ3cSVl 9g5T8LWOvXpEiZXjQyqpbw0b5VZwvXQrRlKdv6AhSx5JPAaBltxvsb9BmJkrsRAcl IIgozTPw0QGHnzS6p8DO+yUkMnB3ZUo985GVwHJlLLnrsf3or/GHCJ4dhjjRlT6da RENtWDxDrpymqtvywGtIfzNxajhnM2yOPJpfawgk58qrq8YPPREUD2sW8EdiD1BBC GJVxqz6sn6OMD++0LsIFlAHHAseH3zn9ATQi+5CMKUEBFn8UrDl4EpSInTqi5dK4L eTUkxYa0G/aYmOefFw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([95.112.41.68]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N7QxB-1tO8iX21bJ-016PWn; Sat, 01 Feb 2025 18:06:12 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3776.700.51.11.1\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2025 18:06:01 +0100 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , David Collier-Brown , Rich Brown via Bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <48FB68A5-8320-4B46-97E1-4C67BB7B7B1B@gmx.de> References: <48F77C27-0E57-4F96-9BD8-238CC93342F8@gmail.com> <9A110AF4-E976-4228-9FA6-92C5C99F611A@gmx.de> To: Jonathan Morton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3776.700.51.11.1) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:On7xkaZoImrARhh3B/9A6yMXvEmDAax1zxDgWwb4lAVsjnBURKy xxvabd6lD/6A+0pBS95NLgfF3YPSPauGCvN8O7CWRAPWMQNC/knHj/sJLHtys4yl2WO2Nat vJHar0de7soTUx+48kCnUPA6mlpn9suDefXS6qmiWkxe0XEb3Obyhah1aUmKnFO0Bx7Wplr +Cug2ceAFNX1Kv/835Z2A== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:+H56CpTmmZQ=;GZk6IUfyDyAir3EaI8HKbs55LMm f2YU9dTrj2HnDx+sgIxbRuZA1jv///DlWiE69oAuXQumc8nYyYwS6MRCbGRWXrQTVQTSdrIDF ii534eUP6iLgi8kdRlU0PHdSkfShqK7kCZif44AmoYHWJ4VB23tYJuOK1mHBm08+eQVNduC4t /obz/mkYhy5+HIrVIG8Zmak7vv2rrjMAwSSV7GhjFr5vgA3AsnGk1u0Anr5XmgpnzcUXvPF9B fcCXAdGTIdR43RLHnIfnH6hKJ+tpeIjKzVK+nt3vGywrN5SzbNuVVIO1rAvk5MapEXU+7y16F i8QBCsFJ5fmRgYPnSLBauetco/eyd7hs3O+M6pp+NNQxQTZZF7WSA58aL5aJpl9tNPSgjCMlc ZqHJ3Z4yqKtXKZTEuUfbB0s9l341sBZZ9oZwqLjeLvEJiU3LYKdC6GfJ2k8ANmI5s24S1Swhw PNSuYQi0/oa2iyby98rv82TkC2U0hNExFDFLOR0SlQZijZSnCvvNpYUl8lSgi6jL/TklAMTE0 DkteoXYU0bLD1wwJzrSsmfC11CG8eC61CoT6mH8+EfdtP5lHqKoqZk9UpdGIgdW1y6GCX19Xx ep+ZfV8IIA0D7UAl3uKrOCBLPZAWdEumpp10r/VvjhcUh79fQySwW2fqnVMjBdZdV4yidxQVf A8ayij7evJRkCHUcmYio31/uxCFEPeI3fGSqDbWAfRca6FjKbGqnzMW0VOv2rr61m1RLEkqdg O1kdQlpLAqwGWOgRhnpTM7K9mBZPmdo3KWlx4wzspESnz52E/hvot3I11yREPOMwqH6T8WSHZ g5Nmoqjb8HGOf9P5q3CZ16Sslt41mQQ2busZ/8CmxNPHRDVqEtBQVfpPdO02Eaa4jFucOJT/X DOPVCT6CoxTIIB79bEZbkOoF3ettb3cL1xMq2naN6T1lBnHxY9ir7sq0Saa3QemZnargnRnCg 3FE0kdjPynq+kEOqUHXeuEUqdMOOeZwIP12pwRXNYG+SzXLb8eMab6AlfIufD1vtkbnbfZYnO 3k96ZCjg7Q1r+pagDirdzmGn1ji89IBzMDIFQjI/8BFpT0zwA2L+PeNBKU2FXUNwOErxUSpu4 BfJqh0L780rImuzsat89XxkQE/wQbqwGyzOSpHlwGqLZlCfLRY+JdnlvXiaRKxCeoswzmipKH Q4NKLWfH3v7TgsG356kGtbkwEisznrgFYoOFzW+RdLGp4nGBazcqJV8fP3V8WQy5fsuE44SUb r0CqbXGQ2iuAhrruHKvFW5zzZh/S8C9jH7N2BNBBEY2oamn8/qkl5RBi/kuBCyitmpdXPvPmj skRpoWfUfSZV+qpn/HlSTQOtOyKtqqc6CBTbpbQmouEu5c= Subject: Re: [Bloat] Comcast & L4S X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2025 17:06:14 -0000 Hi Jonathan, > On 1. Feb 2025, at 15:51, Jonathan Morton = wrote: >=20 >> On 1 Feb, 2025, at 4:33 pm, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat = wrote: >>=20 >> =E2=80=A6Comcast's use of the Internet Engineering Task Force's Low = Latency Low Loss Scalable Throughput (L4S) standards=E2=80=A6 >=20 > That's the tail wagging the dog - but precisely the kind of = non-specialist misunderstanding that L4S' hijacking of the IETF process = was designed to foster. To me it made fully clear that the IETF process is really a mess, I = witnessed it going splendidly in other WGs, but that required good-faith = and gentlemanly sportsmanship from all sides. L4S/NQB showed how easily = this process can be derailed...=20 > It's an EXPERIMENT that the IETF has been BROWBEATEN by Comcast into = PERMITTING to occur. It is NOT a STANDARD, and it was NOT IETF-led. = Every single design suggestion that IETF proposed, to improve = coexistence with other schemes that ARE IETF standards, was resisted or = outright ignored. Well, my take is, low latency docsis had already been mostly or even = fully specified by that time, and so the only changes accepted were = those that had zero implications for LLD... so mostly shuffling verbiage = around. But yeah the whole ram this though the IETF smells party as a = method to create plausible deniability once things turn out not to be = working all that well (and pessimistically assuming there is no real fix = for the failure modes). > As with NQB, Cake already does essentially what L4S requires, except = for default-configured Codel being less than ideal as an AQM for = producing congestion signals for a DCTCP-type response. I have no = intention of modifying Cake to *specifically* accommodate L4S in any = way. If their crap doesn't work properly in a standards-compliant = environment, that's THEIR problem. Now, as advocatus diabolical, the way CoDel works we have interval = and/or target as configurable parameters and a trade-off between = maintaining utilisation over the wider internet and keeping the = signalling reactive for closer by flows, maybe we could teach cake to = allow a second set of interval/(automatically calculated) target to = optimise for local and non local traffic, and use a proper (configurable = and maskable) DSCP/TOS to steer packets into this? Maybe CS7 would do to = signal its intent for local delivery? > - Jonathan Morton