From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp34.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp34.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2798D3B29E for ; Fri, 13 May 2022 12:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pps.filterd (rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp34.rno.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp34.rno.apple.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 24DGiTrA022724; Fri, 13 May 2022 09:53:59 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=from : message-id : content-type : mime-version : subject : date : in-reply-to : cc : to : references; s=20180706; bh=3vfv49kZAUxzW8PYjiC05cvA40KoMZu1kk37ir4idho=; b=nUi8854wDgCBW8bomEy9OCcwviGY0NNMcJV88WYUlwaM1xlBB8rDd89LeU1cLog1OKp0 Ncb9zDQsoEhkAPD6jVOyIKpK5gxYmq5LnJjz6OSHUFWr1nBAfAFnhW98eQ6BWJzk2rnJ fMztgImk5NQFW4Spb5SoMeIPaa67PFu3pnXEA3axLZi5toHEi7nSn9HqacyJpqisTHdu y5aaoDYWDzQBu1ZUoVXXMIFjCzY4+moyltYBgtO+YPvuQsmOEj54P/wRIr+wIy7aOkdF jn7GFH/DudJmove6TfZhNGTEGlyOJgdLTApOzljPV9RSieDF6L83gVtNHxugALygL8ge Vw== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.150]) by rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp34.rno.apple.com with ESMTP id 3fwmm2vm4c-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 13 May 2022 09:53:59 -0700 Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.14]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.18.20220407 64bit (built Apr 7 2022)) with ESMTPS id <0RBT00SBTYXZSF30@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Fri, 13 May 2022 09:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.18.20220407 64bit (built Apr 7 2022)) id <0RBT00W00YH2ZJ00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Fri, 13 May 2022 09:53:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 0af778c0afa90afa8c4c05937d25c782 X-Va-E-CD: 9254c702977b534b0130aa1a7e25f806 X-Va-R-CD: dfad40a3b111b5699441d76301e80d18 X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: 14033f40-ad36-4bb2-98f4-c05542078aab X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 0af778c0afa90afa8c4c05937d25c782 X-V-E-CD: 9254c702977b534b0130aa1a7e25f806 X-V-R-CD: dfad40a3b111b5699441d76301e80d18 X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: 257bbac7-b536-4544-bf71-508d40f619bc X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.486, 18.0.858 definitions=2022-05-13_05:2022-05-13, 2022-05-13 signatures=0 Received: from smtpclient.apple ([17.192.155.244]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.18.20220407 64bit (built Apr 7 2022)) with ESMTPSA id <0RBT00IUGYXY9R00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Fri, 13 May 2022 09:53:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Christoph Paasch Message-id: <49F179DA-EAF7-4895-BBDD-4505339EEA37@apple.com> Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D5B5BA12-8354-42BC-91FE-C77F7C1C7B90" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.100.31\)) Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 09:53:58 -0700 In-reply-to: <08357BCC-6B99-41E5-91BA-FC8ACAB4D8CA@gmx.de> Cc: "Klatsky, Carl" , "nichols@pollere.net" , "bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net" To: Sebastian Moeller References: <96F2051D-753D-4D67-A6D3-5A053975508C@apple.com> <08357BCC-6B99-41E5-91BA-FC8ACAB4D8CA@gmx.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.100.31) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.486, 18.0.858 definitions=2022-05-13_06:2022-05-13, 2022-05-13 signatures=0 Subject: Re: [Bloat] Ookla - Introducing a Better Measure of Latency X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 16:54:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D5B5BA12-8354-42BC-91FE-C77F7C1C7B90 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +1 on measuring the latency on the load-generating connections. Christoph > On May 13, 2022, at 12:48 AM, Sebastian Moeller = wrote: >=20 > Hi Carl, >=20 >=20 >> On May 12, 2022, at 23:04, Klatsky, Carl via Bloat = > = wrote: >>=20 >> Its good that they are running the latency test also during the load = test, but from what it looks like, they seem to be running the latency = test to the same server as the load test. I think a more realistic test = is to run the load test to one server and the latency test to a = different server. That's a more realistic use case... >=20 > The question boils down to what "latency-under-load" should be = measured here: > a) latency of different flows/hosts > b) latency of the load bearing flow(s) >=20 > both are informative, but if I had to choose I would ask Ookla for b), = because running mtr/gping in parallel to a speedtest is comparatively = easy compared to post-hoc deducing latency in the load bearing = connection*... (I would assume that from a packet capture one might be = able to piece this together when looking at the delay between sending a = segment and receiving that matching ACK, which is more hassle than = running e.g. "mtr -ezb4 --order LSNBAWVJMXI 8.8.8.8" ;) )=20 >=20 > Regards > Sebastian >=20 >=20 > *) Well, there are pping (https://github.com/pollere/pping = ) and DlyLoc = (https://github.com/pollere/DlyLoc ), = but so far I have not tried to make these run on my router (probably = should start on an endhost first). >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> Regards, >> Carl Klatsky >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bloat On Behalf Of = Christoph Paasch via Bloat >> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2022 4:01 PM >> To: nichols@pollere.net >> Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> Subject: Re: [Bloat] Ookla - Introducing a Better Measure of Latency >>=20 >> I'm not aware of any rigorous study. But, just from the code, I know = ICMP ping in many cases has a different traffic-class and thus = implicitly gets quite a different treatment than real traffic. >>=20 >> However, Ookla uses TCP (port 8080) to probe the latency in their = app. >>=20 >>=20 >> Christoph >>=20 >>> On May 12, 2022, at 12:44 PM, Kathleen Nichols = wrote: >>>=20 >>> a ping by any other name... >>>=20 >>> Has anyone ever done a rigorous study to see how well ping delays = correspond to the delay that information-carrying packets experience? >>>=20 >>> On 5/12/22 10:15 AM, Christoph Paasch via Bloat wrote: >>>> Ookla's measure of "loaded latency": >>>> = https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ookla.com/articles/introducin >>>> = g-loaded-latency__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!DHnGDBw2sqsRwHiidAQUOhjXEavZmBOtJKb_IzPhxM= m2vqUPyRC2pkVnScJId_KdaNVLsOS7sD0E8QRQ0m8B7LqBavY$ = This will hopefully be = a shift in how operators approach the bufferbloat problem. >>>> Christoph >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Bloat mailing list >>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> = https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bl >>>> = oat__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!DHnGDBw2sqsRwHiidAQUOhjXEavZmBOtJKb_IzPhxMm2vqUPyR >>>> C2pkVnScJId_KdaNVLsOS7sD0E8QRQ0m8BllXPjdw$ >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Bloat mailing list >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> = https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/blo >>> = at__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!DHnGDBw2sqsRwHiidAQUOhjXEavZmBOtJKb_IzPhxMm2vqUPyRC2 >>> pkVnScJId_KdaNVLsOS7sD0E8QRQ0m8BllXPjdw$ >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> = https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat__= ;!!CQl3mcHX2A!DHnGDBw2sqsRwHiidAQUOhjXEavZmBOtJKb_IzPhxMm2vqUPyRC2pkVnScJI= d_KdaNVLsOS7sD0E8QRQ0m8BllXPjdw$ >> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat = --Apple-Mail=_D5B5BA12-8354-42BC-91FE-C77F7C1C7B90 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii +1 = on measuring the latency on the load-generating connections.


Christoph

On May 13, 2022, at 12:48 AM, = Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:

Hi Carl,


On May 12, 2022, at 23:04, Klatsky, = Carl via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

Its good that they are running the latency test also during = the load test, but from what it looks like, they seem to be running the = latency test to the same server as the load test. I think a more = realistic test is to run the load test to one server and the latency = test to a different server. That's a more realistic use case...

= The question = boils down to what "latency-under-load" should be measured = here:
a) latency of = different flows/hosts
b) latency of the load bearing flow(s)

both are = informative, but if I had to choose I would ask Ookla for b), because = running mtr/gping in parallel to a speedtest is comparatively easy = compared to post-hoc deducing latency in the load bearing connection*... = (I would assume that from a packet capture one might be able to piece = this together when looking at the delay between sending a segment and = receiving that matching ACK, which is more hassle than running e.g. "mtr = -ezb4 --order LSNBAWVJMXI 8.8.8.8" ;) ) 

Regards
= Sebastian


*) Well, there are pping (https://github.com/pollere/pping) and DlyLoc (https://github.com/pollere/DlyLoc), but so far = I have not tried to make these run on my router (probably should start = on an endhost first).



Regards,
Carl Klatsky

-----Original = Message-----
From: Bloat <bloat-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of = Christoph Paasch via Bloat
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2022 = 4:01 PM
To: nichols@pollere.net
Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: Re: = [Bloat] Ookla - Introducing a Better Measure of Latency

I'm not aware of any rigorous study. But, just from the code, = I know ICMP ping in many cases has a different traffic-class and thus = implicitly gets quite a different treatment than real traffic.

However, Ookla uses TCP (port 8080) to probe = the latency in their app.


Christoph

On May 12, 2022, at 12:44 PM, Kathleen Nichols = <nichols@pollere.net> wrote:

a ping by any other name...

Has = anyone ever done a rigorous study to see how well ping delays correspond = to the delay that information-carrying packets experience?

On 5/12/22 10:15 AM, Christoph Paasch via = Bloat wrote:
Ookla's = measure of "loaded latency":
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ookla.com/articles/intr= oducin
g-loaded-latency__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!DHnGDBw2sqsRwHiidAQUOhjXEavZmBO= tJKb_IzPhxMm2vqUPyRC2pkVnScJId_KdaNVLsOS7sD0E8QRQ0m8B7LqBavY$ = <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ookla.com/articles/introducing= -loaded-latency__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!DHnGDBw2sqsRwHiidAQUOhjXEavZmBOtJKb_IzPhxMm= 2vqUPyRC2pkVnScJId_KdaNVLsOS7sD0E8QRQ0m8B7LqBavY$ > This will = hopefully be a shift in how operators approach the bufferbloat = problem.
Christoph
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