Re: [Bloat] [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster

[Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>]

Hi Frantisek,

steering this to the bloat list, as I have a hunch my response might not be appropriate for the wide audience in NNagain even though this can have NN ramifications.


> On Dec 11, 2023, at 10:50, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> Top story on HN:
> 
> h++ps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38597744
> 
> My pick for top comment:
> 
> <image_6487327.JPG>
> 
> 
> A possible L4S end game? 😁 

Unlikely, as that would e.g. violate EU directive 2015/2120 too blatantly. My take is more subtle, L4S is essentially a technique that only works well for short RTTs and the end game is to make datacenter space inside eyeball-ISPs much more desirable and hence yielding higher prices... L4S effectively increases TCPs existing RTT bias* and hence makes long range L4S connections undesirable/under-performing, and that implies that content providers that want to use L4S will need to get their servers/CDNs close to the eye-balls. But hey, I would love to be wrong and ISPs jus do this out of the goodness of their hearts... (only then I would politely ask the to deploy a flow queueing AQM instead of DualQ, as that in one swoop will solve a ship-load of L4S problems).

Regards
	Sebastian


*) L4S argues that this is not an increase, but that due to removing traditional TCP's excess queueing it just reveals TCPs inherent RTT bias; IMHO that is a bull shit argument since the root cause is not important, what matters is that with L4S RTT bias becomes measurably worse.


P.S.: I think my mail provider marks outgoing mails with too many links as SPAM, so I need to make the URLs invisible, and I believe replacing the t's in h t t p with plus signs does the trick... 


> 
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Frank
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> 
> h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
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> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> 
> 
> On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 7:22 PM, Robert McMahon via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> Sorry, this isn't a very good technical analysis. It's a push agenda for AQM. I get that many people's egos are tied to their belief that my algorithm came down from God himself. It's not true though. 
> 
> 
> Bob
> On Dec 10, 2023, at 3:12 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> I find it alarming for the future of internet that there is a trend to
> use elbowing techniques to squeeze metrics out at the expense of all
> other flows. We know that when nobody plays fair the arms race ends
> badly.
> 
> Best regards,
> Sauli
> 
> On 12/10/23, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>  Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about general public, really
>  - it’s an article in The Verge :-)
> 
>  But yeah. Here’s something they should address:
> 
>  h++ps://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-findings
> 
>  In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a biggest L4S
>  problem:
>  h++ps://www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  All the best,
> 
>  Frank
>  Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> 
>  h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>  Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>  iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>  Skype: casioa5302ca
>  frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> 
> 
>  On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain <
>  nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
>  About L4S
> 
>  h++ps://www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed-bandwidth
> 
>  It says something about their target audience that they feel they need to
>  explain bytes vs bits.
> 
>  Thanks,
>  --MM--
>  Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use force
>  to apply it to others.
> 
>  Matt Mathis  (Email is best)
>  Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.
> 
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> 
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