From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A9613CB37 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2023 04:52:25 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1702288343; x=1702893143; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=bDXXaZE2wrzwH6tzHC6vJyjTVnUFajcQuenHcgG/Bo8=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References: To; b=RylXksAZdt26Mf8Lk2qUDUxuj23L35DIy/fTnNRzwmRjZnwBbBJeVD+BfqhOxhQk EuQoi7ra4YchxeRmqOGDpG67uukyunCtVswFBBt2ksOCUZxqJdHyWKnokhLxhXnQP tnPCxyTbS8MbcAohQXJWUGnU3eBx6OHjxl2BZkLJ6q/TNLtKFpKlNUYRIpCRiuOdi Au+emJOKz+Uf7iWSEmTQ42gnT5vC4DQ0G34g48D3cubC8ZugsKGbF/oqMmxFSwoWA FuL3qKyXIooTlm4B+FknFts4pcb+Yo7JOLAFuRyX3Cnq/SVAzvs8ss2roUCvUt6pu lehY9cSVVVv7qRUFRQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MwwZX-1rRW0r3unr-00yTzu; Mon, 11 Dec 2023 10:52:22 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.4\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 10:52:22 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4C2CA220-A7EF-4198-BE6C-A2FC979A1F8D@gmx.de> References: <826a0d77-b6b8-423d-a094-93d75840fa90@rjmcmahon.com> To: bloat X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.4) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:bqAVi8XpA/hK0LHP8St5z5DmIFeS9WFqrBur1UxKrV6PGZoB2qV m4+8yMjY1I3gT4Xy6Rt7FQgvPKwhcfpqYD7coTvRdRryeEI+EsZzNHk4K/1rOlR4wA3biFl OUrT/OjK9c38iSRjTUJGAwO5OIX7+IjRaNrnPnQjK8AhE95UDddUOFSVixcwxQL5dr4rpoQ 48sOvOL5n1TMgGt7Q4FzA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:GaF8BZGuETY=;4hTW2rVFA2D8D/Ow84icJgUrPkh +qsuGo1J0chcLu58X9E2/ckG09KHDFp7ZrDiS8lhxcAfkL2oQaKmx9hIq87vkHoOmIS6RbJFE 0wgGp5o+lPZcAzFD9UtZbnU/p1Qxh56TwSt04MIjksAexzDx44e4yvoxZl+5UiUsfy6vMn0dA XNzD9aiZtz8vipdHyxmQd/cwHF5+7CyyhyyIxN0BIds7snGdU5LMBg3oyNa3KVN5Hw9To9BDf XRXg0TuTnxIpNk+g8QAHENPOYVdbptKF4eTACqWCAa1f9k2598160wAmE0CJrKepYAwicasjt olkM2kbBS2LC8T3XTNx7vH4TyruK+GBMmB4ZleyBh11J6u+l+EuVMZGQtB+jN5pd6BgWi1ibg /Gwre9qE46Yp8T3ouHris+MXq7DXkdjFoEDug5i/W3NcDAXX/pckXO9haiYChqOWbG0YbWOy2 xTJS6lpBSfwsC1gYynTzZWyVRIL0LsnQD8uUpo3DF1NHRgjcop5C4xE+s96dVWPz/6HGkIJvA V+Y6KhNogo8aZ2f4/CcJA4UEqAsIrNb3in9mA+1gBwU+/ZcB6Rk8LqRsb6RJT3dEHk/FtGzG7 9/5iKcXvxp7e5wjHmqGPx2kU94xiDYePlsMDFuavL+CNyFV0O6EE9MsO9vO/mDRRxdCHerdJk HkQoVWVTFrKsbDj8ixq/C7J7J/e4ZNdFp5syqGWI1Mas6tB3DIhwliCO21Lwk6LzPOZKFI8Yo kDK3LvHQ4MgXx/vf3OYrrWtbItpWFpzv8SplNlYOwWtdqC9F/T7P6ORFAjHhpV5BFqpMETFgz glTGxJR8PRrGmVUGZCtxQPXUstAOk9RNUBYPqUNYlkhRY6Dr5bFHVVVlvrKSZhWhEqDxNFFng vzoO63Cx/vLcgcmPD6UUl32ahYtMq3SUwYeBoN9Hjee8KDQ9D6mYrk+77ppoN05FHIE6brreq brHd9ui3mfVoZBNoGI71c+cro9o= Subject: Re: [Bloat] [NNagain] The Verge: The quiet plan to make the internet feel faster X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 09:52:25 -0000 Hi Frantisek, steering this to the bloat list, as I have a hunch my response might not = be appropriate for the wide audience in NNagain even though this can = have NN ramifications. > On Dec 11, 2023, at 10:50, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain = wrote: >=20 > Top story on HN: >=20 > h++ps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D38597744 >=20 > My pick for top comment: >=20 > >=20 >=20 > A possible L4S end game? =F0=9F=98=81=20 Unlikely, as that would e.g. violate EU directive 2015/2120 too = blatantly. My take is more subtle, L4S is essentially a technique that = only works well for short RTTs and the end game is to make datacenter = space inside eyeball-ISPs much more desirable and hence yielding higher = prices... L4S effectively increases TCPs existing RTT bias* and hence = makes long range L4S connections undesirable/under-performing, and that = implies that content providers that want to use L4S will need to get = their servers/CDNs close to the eye-balls. But hey, I would love to be = wrong and ISPs jus do this out of the goodness of their hearts... (only = then I would politely ask the to deploy a flow queueing AQM instead of = DualQ, as that in one swoop will solve a ship-load of L4S problems). Regards Sebastian *) L4S argues that this is not an increase, but that due to removing = traditional TCP's excess queueing it just reveals TCPs inherent RTT = bias; IMHO that is a bull shit argument since the root cause is not = important, what matters is that with L4S RTT bias becomes measurably = worse. P.S.: I think my mail provider marks outgoing mails with too many links = as SPAM, so I need to make the URLs invisible, and I believe replacing = the t's in h t t p with plus signs does the trick...=20 >=20 >=20 > All the best, >=20 > Frank > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >=20 > h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=20 > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > Skype: casioa5302ca > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com >=20 >=20 > On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 7:22 PM, Robert McMahon via Nnagain = wrote: > Sorry, this isn't a very good technical analysis. It's a push agenda = for AQM. I get that many people's egos are tied to their belief that my = algorithm came down from God himself. It's not true though.=20 >=20 >=20 > Bob > On Dec 10, 2023, at 3:12 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via Nnagain = wrote: > I find it alarming for the future of internet that there is a trend to > use elbowing techniques to squeeze metrics out at the expense of all > other flows. We know that when nobody plays fair the arms race ends > badly. >=20 > Best regards, > Sauli >=20 > On 12/10/23, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain = wrote: > Well, to be completely honest, I would say its about general public, = really > - it=E2=80=99s an article in The Verge :-) >=20 > But yeah. Here=E2=80=99s something they should address: >=20 > h++ps://github.com/heistp/l4s-tests#key-findings >=20 > In general - a potential harm to innocent bystanders is a biggest L4S > problem: > = h++ps://www.linkedin.com/posts/frantisekborsik_jonathanmorton-l4s-ietf118-= activity-7128317873571176448-GWAX >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > All the best, >=20 > Frank > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >=20 > h++ps://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > Skype: casioa5302ca > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com >=20 >=20 > On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:48 AM, Matt Mathis via Nnagain < > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >=20 > About L4S >=20 > = h++ps://www.theverge.com/23655762/l4s-internet-apple-comcast-latency-speed= -bandwidth >=20 > It says something about their target audience that they feel they = need to > explain bytes vs bits. >=20 > Thanks, > --MM-- > Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use = force > to apply it to others. >=20 > Matt Mathis (Email is best) > Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call. >=20 >=20 > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >=20 >=20 >=20 > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > h++ps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain