* [Bloat] Why you need at least 3Mbps upload to get good game performance with ~1500byte packets: Doing the math
@ 2020-12-09 3:20 Kenneth Porter
2020-12-09 10:52 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Kenneth Porter @ 2020-12-09 3:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bufferbloat Mailing List
<https://forum.openwrt.org/t/why-you-need-at-least-3mbps-upload-to-get-good-game-performance-with-1500byte-packets-doing-the-math/81240>
Upstream article:
<http://models.street-artists.org/2020/12/05/why-gaming-on-a-dsl-line-is-terrible-and-the-math-says-theres-nothing-you-can-do-about-it/>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] Why you need at least 3Mbps upload to get good game performance with ~1500byte packets: Doing the math
2020-12-09 3:20 [Bloat] Why you need at least 3Mbps upload to get good game performance with ~1500byte packets: Doing the math Kenneth Porter
@ 2020-12-09 10:52 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-12-09 11:06 ` Sebastian Moeller
0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Toke Høiland-Jørgensen @ 2020-12-09 10:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Kenneth Porter, Bufferbloat Mailing List
Kenneth Porter <shiva@sewingwitch.com> writes:
> <https://forum.openwrt.org/t/why-you-need-at-least-3mbps-upload-to-get-good-game-performance-with-1500byte-packets-doing-the-math/81240>
>
> Upstream article:
>
> <http://models.street-artists.org/2020/12/05/why-gaming-on-a-dsl-line-is-terrible-and-the-math-says-theres-nothing-you-can-do-about-it/>
Good points, but doesn't mention options to decrease the packet size
(lower MTU/MSS clamping)... :)
-Toke
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] Why you need at least 3Mbps upload to get good game performance with ~1500byte packets: Doing the math
2020-12-09 10:52 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
@ 2020-12-09 11:06 ` Sebastian Moeller
2020-12-09 11:20 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Moeller @ 2020-12-09 11:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Toke Høiland-Jørgensen; +Cc: Kenneth Porter, Bufferbloat Mailing List
Hi Toke,
> On Dec 9, 2020, at 11:52, Toke Høiland-Jørgensen via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> Kenneth Porter <shiva@sewingwitch.com> writes:
>
>> <https://forum.openwrt.org/t/why-you-need-at-least-3mbps-upload-to-get-good-game-performance-with-1500byte-packets-doing-the-math/81240>
>>
>> Upstream article:
>>
>> <http://models.street-artists.org/2020/12/05/why-gaming-on-a-dsl-line-is-terrible-and-the-math-says-theres-nothing-you-can-do-about-it/>
>
> Good points, but doesn't mention options to decrease the packet size
> (lower MTU/MSS clamping)... :)
But he is doing exactly that in the script he developed for OpenWrt games on poor links:
https://github.com/dlakelan/routerperf/blob/master/SimpleHFSCgamerscript.sh
iptables -t mangle -F FORWARD # to flush the openwrt default MSS clamping rule
if [ $UPRATE -lt 3000 ]; then
ipt64 -t mangle -A FORWARD -p tcp --tcp-flags SYN,RST SYN -o $LAN -j TCPMSS --set-mss 540
fi
if [ $DOWNRATE -lt 3000 ]; then
## need to clamp MSS to 540 bytes in both directions to reduce
## the latency increase caused by 1 packet ahead of us in the
## queue since rates are too low to send 1500 byte packets at acceptable delay
ipt64 -t mangle -A FORWARD -p tcp --tcp-flags SYN,RST SYN -o $WAN -j TCPMSS --set-mss 540
fi
We are actually trying to get something along that lines packaged as a script for sqm-scripts, but that is delayed since I need to fix some iptables stuff that seems to not work anymore first....
>
> -Toke
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] Why you need at least 3Mbps upload to get good game performance with ~1500byte packets: Doing the math
2020-12-09 11:06 ` Sebastian Moeller
@ 2020-12-09 11:20 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-12-09 11:27 ` Sebastian Moeller
0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Toke Høiland-Jørgensen @ 2020-12-09 11:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Sebastian Moeller; +Cc: Kenneth Porter, Bufferbloat Mailing List
Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> writes:
> Hi Toke,
>
>
>> On Dec 9, 2020, at 11:52, Toke Høiland-Jørgensen via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> Kenneth Porter <shiva@sewingwitch.com> writes:
>>
>>> <https://forum.openwrt.org/t/why-you-need-at-least-3mbps-upload-to-get-good-game-performance-with-1500byte-packets-doing-the-math/81240>
>>>
>>> Upstream article:
>>>
>>> <http://models.street-artists.org/2020/12/05/why-gaming-on-a-dsl-line-is-terrible-and-the-math-says-theres-nothing-you-can-do-about-it/>
>>
>> Good points, but doesn't mention options to decrease the packet size
>> (lower MTU/MSS clamping)... :)
>
> But he is doing exactly that in the script he developed for OpenWrt games on poor links:
Ah, cool! May be necessary to actually decrease the interface MTU as
well, though, since TCP MSS clamping won't work for QUIC...
And of course, for IPv6 you can't decrease the MTU below 1280 bytes
without breaking spec :(
-Toke
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] Why you need at least 3Mbps upload to get good game performance with ~1500byte packets: Doing the math
2020-12-09 11:20 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
@ 2020-12-09 11:27 ` Sebastian Moeller
2020-12-09 12:17 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Moeller @ 2020-12-09 11:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Toke Høiland-Jørgensen; +Cc: Kenneth Porter, Bufferbloat Mailing List
Hi Toke,
> On Dec 9, 2020, at 12:20, Toke Høiland-Jørgensen <toke@toke.dk> wrote:
>
> Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> writes:
>
>> Hi Toke,
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 9, 2020, at 11:52, Toke Høiland-Jørgensen via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Kenneth Porter <shiva@sewingwitch.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> <https://forum.openwrt.org/t/why-you-need-at-least-3mbps-upload-to-get-good-game-performance-with-1500byte-packets-doing-the-math/81240>
>>>>
>>>> Upstream article:
>>>>
>>>> <http://models.street-artists.org/2020/12/05/why-gaming-on-a-dsl-line-is-terrible-and-the-math-says-theres-nothing-you-can-do-about-it/>
>>>
>>> Good points, but doesn't mention options to decrease the packet size
>>> (lower MTU/MSS clamping)... :)
>>
>> But he is doing exactly that in the script he developed for OpenWrt games on poor links:
>
> Ah, cool! May be necessary to actually decrease the interface MTU as
> well, though, since TCP MSS clamping won't work for QUIC...
Mmmh, QUIC does pMPUd, no? IN that case a "simple" filter to drop QUIC packets along a certain size might already do the trick?
>
> And of course, for IPv6 you can't decrease the MTU below 1280 bytes
> without breaking spec :(
Jepp, but MSS clamping still works, except there are limits how low OS will go, Macos will not go below ~200, and I believe Linux also recently got increased values for min MSS to counter some DOS issues with SACK and friends, no? That said, it is well possible that even IPv6 might work with smaller MTUs...
Best Regards
Sebastian
>
> -Toke
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bloat] Why you need at least 3Mbps upload to get good game performance with ~1500byte packets: Doing the math
2020-12-09 11:27 ` Sebastian Moeller
@ 2020-12-09 12:17 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Toke Høiland-Jørgensen @ 2020-12-09 12:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Sebastian Moeller; +Cc: Kenneth Porter, Bufferbloat Mailing List
Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> writes:
> Hi Toke,
>
>
>> On Dec 9, 2020, at 12:20, Toke Høiland-Jørgensen <toke@toke.dk> wrote:
>>
>> Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> writes:
>>
>>> Hi Toke,
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Dec 9, 2020, at 11:52, Toke Høiland-Jørgensen via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Kenneth Porter <shiva@sewingwitch.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> <https://forum.openwrt.org/t/why-you-need-at-least-3mbps-upload-to-get-good-game-performance-with-1500byte-packets-doing-the-math/81240>
>>>>>
>>>>> Upstream article:
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://models.street-artists.org/2020/12/05/why-gaming-on-a-dsl-line-is-terrible-and-the-math-says-theres-nothing-you-can-do-about-it/>
>>>>
>>>> Good points, but doesn't mention options to decrease the packet size
>>>> (lower MTU/MSS clamping)... :)
>>>
>>> But he is doing exactly that in the script he developed for OpenWrt games on poor links:
>>
>> Ah, cool! May be necessary to actually decrease the interface MTU as
>> well, though, since TCP MSS clamping won't work for QUIC...
>
> Mmmh, QUIC does pMPUd, no? IN that case a "simple" filter to drop QUIC packets along a certain size might already do the trick?
Maybe? But actually lowering the MTU of the interface would have the
same effect, I guess? And what happens in the wild is anyone's guess, of
course... ;)
>> And of course, for IPv6 you can't decrease the MTU below 1280 bytes
>> without breaking spec :(
>
> Jepp, but MSS clamping still works, except there are limits how
> low OS will go, Macos will not go below ~200, and I believe
> Linux also recently got increased values for min MSS to counter
> some DOS issues with SACK and friends, no? That said, it is well
> possible that even IPv6 might work with smaller MTUs...
Sure, MSS clamping will work even for IPv6, but only for TCP...
-Toke
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
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2020-12-09 3:20 [Bloat] Why you need at least 3Mbps upload to get good game performance with ~1500byte packets: Doing the math Kenneth Porter
2020-12-09 10:52 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-12-09 11:06 ` Sebastian Moeller
2020-12-09 11:20 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-12-09 11:27 ` Sebastian Moeller
2020-12-09 12:17 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
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