From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <moeller0@gmx.de>
Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15])
 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits))
 (No client certificate requested)
 by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E9023B29D
 for <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Wed,  9 Dec 2020 06:27:53 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net;
 s=badeba3b8450; t=1607513265;
 bh=pVOX49eYbJcdn/voKG1GJG1pbvV+5JGm9jOizGCaIj8=;
 h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To;
 b=Tt0R9OGh8HRbGzgewEIHYZitplzglRb6zXQ4odZMHonO6z+FglROnJ0N5ytuaa35/
 /d6KNyLrm1voGZKDHly+hzSyXSrLMsO33u7LrL2J27Gsn2YvZc5/Idi7RRmAKrzEuG
 s7ElIJXAN5UFm2SA3q+B8fniPJfH2P5QQvzlWmaY=
X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c
Received: from [192.168.250.102] ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx004
 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MvsIv-1jy1F13dPr-00svew; Wed, 09
 Dec 2020 12:27:44 +0100
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\))
From: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>
In-Reply-To: <871rfzp6na.fsf@toke.dk>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 12:27:44 +0100
Cc: Kenneth Porter <shiva@sewingwitch.com>,
 Bufferbloat Mailing List <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <4E613653-EF22-40A2-B194-7BA543F15DE3@gmx.de>
References: <8E303BEF17675E3847CBD76C@[172.27.17.193]>
 <877dprp7z3.fsf@toke.dk> <472E7038-DC03-4A54-97BC-49999B78B343@gmx.de>
 <871rfzp6na.fsf@toke.dk>
To: =?utf-8?Q?Toke_H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen?= <toke@toke.dk>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17)
X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:ufAcw8o1QQimAe+q7rFzKNCYjl/HuZCCFuJjjm3+eHP8NSyjWrY
 UxUg7vpSaF9eBb8J4zYnYt1Lt982I5zv4IBwnA91eMZQ4fL8FVqlS/cBAW4xntFrBBXJB6O
 D4TxLQB+7K9MTojTDgQlsQLsGBanA69JL7qy4AgiM7yh7vGPSx8PVugUALAX8P5UXjJS7vJ
 /xwS5QC15EfIjDobtq9wA==
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:84WjVywhqdE=:cOr2QafgUrL1TRWuAKiCeu
 OlPEs+dmODHy8HtCucWmopt6n36tg9yNggt+eL0T/KLb+uckszfBOiAiZm4FBnBCJW7lDoIFW
 B9rJMoam5QRNvpetxxsZunX+WikuypSQsoXCA4lm+a/ZqHzPiNlwPPKwxV0l4euhtgK/PGpDC
 Hpqh3gvZtlaXxss2hb1Fnr2QhtEmz5EAp2zlcc2EqhyZLzEGx5KbS1bsrozd+GgtdnufF4zO0
 jrOz6sVNo91bWhDKF12ULxqmFywdLSe8nf6Rc238B+TEsIz6QrJhvH3t3hOkDobjOxYNibmY2
 frwFtoghV1FrrAUQQyPq/Z14kmpHybyvFTRtZPNVKMJd6xksWHHHmwoEbUAvDZA04Yk1OA5wY
 SNjzjZ+C1BAEcwAQkQJTNoNlnG7duJe7avKrMp8NUbhantUlLzgMs1ksZ3q+YKbvjdGaucZXB
 kY2Wgl5PRKaODn4XOyvK4Ahfuhd9e6IUXdDg+3gILTv/WZTQC4+hSh20RCXGKL7/epLDxMj56
 /h2kuVGpRbEYCsccTWhXKoMQlPeASeJpQR/0Is/F7+s6xLJMCS//IAt+06my3Ta0cpEBSeVU8
 G3DgwfWHZspoTDy51am4OTraUJmArCbIku8emDcAQaN99FGywJWm7iSWeGcXEVk7XOKy6ixLr
 /1DIEgURybJvJDuL9To6gAHp4cxOIwH04s3RtTjK+CllOx2F/MD5/Q/ehZfvxvAk4d3JU+6//
 +sjANWSc8LtQoRq3/7QGeK8rjU3rVLL9mgnKuoedhTlV7bXRGzoI/Q8U2EhbezjM/QUd7BWgP
 LZSgvq1Rx3SMMzh6B5lnOUblfPUKuVTQORMpJhjD3wC19krTqZ/mllBU/pv+JbG1lz1h27Zk9
 uC8/Ed5OFTjGhV5pO5DA9nPQHpaUjXl+zGOqDhLLx7J0uZ7JOUTV6WgR3XqK/3
Subject: Re: [Bloat] Why you need at least 3Mbps upload to get good game
 performance with ~1500byte packets: Doing the math
X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20
Precedence: list
List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat <bloat.lists.bufferbloat.net>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/options/bloat>,
 <mailto:bloat-request@lists.bufferbloat.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/bloat>
List-Post: <mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
List-Help: <mailto:bloat-request@lists.bufferbloat.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat>,
 <mailto:bloat-request@lists.bufferbloat.net?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 11:27:53 -0000

Hi Toke,


> On Dec 9, 2020, at 12:20, Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen =
<toke@toke.dk> wrote:
>=20
> Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> writes:
>=20
>> Hi Toke,
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Dec 9, 2020, at 11:52, Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen via Bloat =
<bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Kenneth Porter <shiva@sewingwitch.com> writes:
>>>=20
>>>> =
<https://forum.openwrt.org/t/why-you-need-at-least-3mbps-upload-to-get-goo=
d-game-performance-with-1500byte-packets-doing-the-math/81240>
>>>>=20
>>>> Upstream article:
>>>>=20
>>>> =
<http://models.street-artists.org/2020/12/05/why-gaming-on-a-dsl-line-is-t=
errible-and-the-math-says-theres-nothing-you-can-do-about-it/>
>>>=20
>>> Good points, but doesn't mention options to decrease the packet size
>>> (lower MTU/MSS clamping)... :)
>>=20
>> 	But he is doing exactly that in the script he developed for =
OpenWrt games on poor links:
>=20
> Ah, cool! May be necessary to actually decrease the interface MTU as
> well, though, since TCP MSS clamping won't work for QUIC...

	Mmmh, QUIC does pMPUd, no? IN that case a "simple" filter to =
drop QUIC packets along a certain size might already do the trick?


>=20
> And of course, for IPv6 you can't decrease the MTU below 1280 bytes
> without breaking spec :(

	Jepp, but MSS clamping still works, except there are limits how =
low OS will go, Macos will not go below ~200, and I believe Linux also =
recently got increased values for min MSS to counter some DOS issues =
with SACK and friends, no? That said, it is well possible that even IPv6 =
might work with smaller MTUs...

Best Regards
	Sebastian

>=20
> -Toke