From: "Bless, Roland (TM)" <roland.bless@kit.edu>
To: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>,
Luca Muscariello <luca.muscariello@gmail.com>
Cc: Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com>,
bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Bloat] when does the CoDel part of fq_codel help in the real world?
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 13:48:14 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <4b75ff51-0bc2-9bd7-7759-0a4a2cbaedee@kit.edu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <E1FC5884-F6EA-47E6-871D-7EFA88028F62@ifi.uio.no>
Hi Michael,
Am 27.11.18 um 12:04 schrieb Michael Welzl:
> I'm lost in this conversation: I thought it started with a statement saying that the queue length must be at least a BDP such that full utilization is attained because the queue never drains.
I think it helps to distinguish between bottleneck buffer size (i.e.,
its capacity) and bottleneck buffer occupancy (i.e., queue length).
My point was that full bottleneck utilization doesn't require any buffer
occupancy at all. I think one should also distinguish precisely between
different viewpoints: at the sender or at the bottleneck (aggregate of
many flows from different sources with different RTTs).
> To this, I'd want to add that, in addition to the links from Roland, the point of ABE is to address exactly that: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-12
> (in the RFC Editor queue)
Yep, because then the backoff is less drastic so the utilization is kept
at a higher level even if the queue is much smaller than a BDP (that is
concluded from the fact that when ECN is present an AQM will try to keep
the queue much smaller). Our complementary approach was the AQM Steering
approach that let's the AQM adapt.
> But now I think you're discussing a BDP worth of data *in flight*, which is something else.
Yes, maybe because I think it was confused, but it's anyhow related:
having a BDP in flight will allow you fully utilize the link capacity,
having BDP+x in flight will lead to having x queued up in the bottleneck
buffer. So having 2BDP inflight will lead to 1 BDP on the wire and 1 BDP
in the buffer. That's what loss based CC variants usually have and what
BBRv1 set as limit.
Regards,
Roland
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2018-11-27 12:48 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 102+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2018-11-26 19:08 Pete Heist
2018-11-26 19:28 ` Neal Cardwell
2018-11-27 20:42 ` Dave Taht
2018-11-27 20:54 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2018-11-27 21:00 ` Dave Taht
2018-11-27 21:05 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2018-11-26 21:29 ` Jonathan Morton
2018-11-27 9:24 ` Luca Muscariello
2018-11-27 10:26 ` Bless, Roland (TM)
2018-11-27 10:29 ` Luca Muscariello
2018-11-27 10:35 ` Bless, Roland (TM)
2018-11-27 10:40 ` Luca Muscariello
2018-11-27 10:50 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
2018-11-27 11:01 ` Luca Muscariello
2018-11-27 11:21 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
2018-11-27 12:17 ` Jonathan Morton
2018-11-27 13:37 ` Luca Muscariello
2018-11-27 13:49 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
2018-11-27 14:07 ` Luca Muscariello
2018-11-27 14:18 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
2018-11-27 18:44 ` Kathleen Nichols
2018-11-27 19:25 ` Dave Taht
2018-11-27 21:57 ` Roland Bless
2018-11-27 11:53 ` Bless, Roland (TM)
2018-11-27 11:58 ` Luca Muscariello
2018-11-27 12:22 ` Bless, Roland (TM)
2018-11-27 11:06 ` Jonathan Morton
2018-11-27 11:07 ` Michael Welzl
2018-11-29 7:35 ` Dave Taht
2018-11-29 18:43 ` Stephen Hemminger
2018-11-29 19:08 ` Dave Taht
2018-11-30 5:51 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
2018-11-30 19:02 ` Dave Taht
2018-11-30 19:58 ` Stephen Hemminger
2018-11-27 11:04 ` Michael Welzl
2018-11-27 12:48 ` Bless, Roland (TM) [this message]
2018-11-27 11:40 ` Bless, Roland (TM)
2018-11-27 11:43 ` Bless, Roland (TM)
2018-11-29 7:39 ` Dave Taht
2018-11-29 7:45 ` Jonathan Morton
2018-11-29 7:54 ` Dave Taht
2018-11-29 8:09 ` Luca Muscariello
2018-11-29 13:49 ` Bless, Roland (TM)
2018-11-29 8:41 ` Bless, Roland (TM)
2018-11-29 7:33 ` Dave Taht
2018-11-29 8:13 ` Bless, Roland (TM)
2018-11-29 10:00 ` Pete Heist
2018-11-29 16:09 ` Luca Muscariello
2018-11-29 17:07 ` Mario Hock
2018-11-29 22:30 ` Luca Muscariello
2018-11-30 9:55 ` Mario Hock
2018-11-30 10:32 ` Luca Muscariello
2018-11-30 11:04 ` Jonathan Morton
2018-11-30 11:53 ` jf
2018-12-03 9:42 ` Mario Hock
2018-11-27 11:52 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2018-11-28 3:37 ` [Bloat] AFD Dave Taht
2018-11-27 20:58 ` [Bloat] when does the CoDel part of fq_codel help in the real world? Dave Taht
2018-11-27 22:19 ` Luca Muscariello
2018-11-27 22:30 ` Roland Bless
2018-11-27 23:17 ` Dave Taht
2018-11-28 3:47 ` Kathleen Nichols
2018-11-28 9:56 ` Luca Muscariello
2018-11-28 10:40 ` Dave Taht
2018-11-28 10:48 ` Luca Muscariello
2018-11-28 12:10 ` Bless, Roland (TM)
2018-11-29 7:22 ` Dave Taht
2018-11-29 7:20 ` Dave Taht
2018-11-27 20:50 ` Dave Taht
2018-11-26 21:56 ` Michael Welzl
2018-11-26 22:13 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2018-11-27 8:54 ` Pete Heist
2018-11-27 9:31 ` Jonathan Morton
2018-11-27 13:19 ` Michael Richardson
2018-11-27 18:59 ` Jonathan Morton
2018-11-27 20:10 ` Dave Taht
2018-11-27 21:17 ` Michael Welzl
2018-11-27 21:20 ` Michael Welzl
2018-11-29 7:11 ` Dave Taht
2018-11-29 7:28 ` [Bloat] incremental deployment, transport and L4S (Re: when does the CoDel part of fq_codel help in the real world?) Mikael Abrahamsson
2018-11-29 7:36 ` Jonathan Morton
2018-11-29 7:46 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
2018-11-29 8:08 ` Michael Welzl
2018-11-29 10:30 ` Jonathan Morton
2018-11-29 12:06 ` Michael Welzl
2018-11-29 12:52 ` Jonathan Morton
2018-11-30 7:54 ` Michael Welzl
2019-02-03 18:20 ` Dave Taht
2018-11-29 12:12 ` Michael Welzl
2018-11-29 12:56 ` Jonathan Morton
2018-11-29 13:30 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
2018-11-29 23:27 ` Jonathan Morton
2018-11-30 6:01 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
2018-11-29 14:06 ` Bless, Roland (TM)
2018-11-29 8:09 ` Jonathan Morton
2018-11-29 8:19 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
2018-11-29 8:34 ` Jonathan Morton
2018-11-29 10:15 ` Sebastian Moeller
2018-11-29 10:53 ` Mikael Abrahamsson
2018-11-30 4:54 ` Dave Taht
2018-11-28 2:04 ` [Bloat] when does the CoDel part of fq_codel help in the real world? Pete Heist
2018-11-28 3:52 ` Dave Taht
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