From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk0-x230.google.com (mail-qk0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE2313B2A2 for ; Sat, 26 Nov 2016 10:33:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-qk0-x230.google.com with SMTP id n21so102519770qka.3 for ; Sat, 26 Nov 2016 07:33:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=TqYiEwwWAFjgOvA1L2i1TQ+bhOwvpjedbSLDwb8odQc=; b=VnIPdirTA1G0wVR8Uvhq+xMrOrCNlUdn4qxgQnSqsGOm3L5PmfYYTmJPjBzBwGdO49 nh1BOnfv3F1Qyjwqosw8e0f/uT+T9YVNVZj4ypfTiTLR6+T2W01CmF5cKyH/JL1agBZq 7Gsau2F3XU0SvogFIfK2i118HpadnWFqHG2f8MibWI/h351nuR8mdwVX47TYPg5CIunH 7c7gH2tO2XR7VJIr2d1z7pOIn+AjpVCbqqUkKbj9nbjAQCquzKq2QGrFIMXt1aYlPZT8 iYurIiSJRoNPCo8ebF//Wig+9cLxEHbmd0KWLQTZsMw+aIiI7FY9CN/AKTe1rUN3UlWk joUg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=TqYiEwwWAFjgOvA1L2i1TQ+bhOwvpjedbSLDwb8odQc=; b=GQy67paW7LLj5aLC2RCkHgZPocxWVnuTjR2vaBC9LUDUGPMe32QEuknk4XPK7m5bth qq8P0GXs8VF/ATby6+o6Ll9vWTZWmjy2Mci2ff0u6BbPFQqUo3ymLKGvIOsCeK9SRGK0 NYPrfXjAIERyGaYt+lFAOKIz8OTtVpCfIlrUbOI2fytHGC0fAvFISZyjFDVxAJVpxTlb gFEeRROMBX0FnhyUmcQSWz1scGccIYkainqDZdLp0UOdHun/1QJCpOPnM5dNzfuchnTA QAd0qo2WQ13WSXxfIWNl8jZULYrLHLJpbRjwTgxI+xhveFXiU8ksBW9Ntr2UlcvwuxSA JMKA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC02+LrrddZxDvmHX/cCveNP4cKJqCSxZ/RCPGvLlfifbiKnq8WfyFc2uI6SaRfGRRw== X-Received: by 10.55.0.65 with SMTP id 62mr3060375qka.106.1480174398116; Sat, 26 Nov 2016 07:33:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from richs-mbp-6659.lan (d-ptld-bng1-64-222-154-203.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net. [64.222.154.203]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r186sm24069942qke.25.2016.11.26.07.33.17 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 26 Nov 2016 07:33:17 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Rich Brown In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 10:33:16 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <548F6875-8670-4784-8A4D-9D4E6F0F20BD@gmail.com> References: To: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Subject: Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017 X-BeenThere: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: General list for discussing Bufferbloat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 15:33:18 -0000 Dave T=C3=A4ht attempts to refocus the group, and asks:=20 > Can I encourage folk to think big and out of the technical box? >=20 > On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 7:32 AM, Dave Taht = wrote: >> What's left to do? >>=20 >> What else can we do? >>=20 >> What should we stop doing? >>=20 >> What can we do better? Lots of good thoughts on this thread.=20 My impression is that we have reached a strong technical point. We have = solved some really hard, really significant problems. We are in a = position to Declare Victory on a large part of the problem, even though = there are loads of details to clean up. Most of the suggestions in this thread deal with Getting the Word Out. = That's good - that's the declaring victory part. The bad news is that = this is not our collective skill set.=20 Some thoughts about what we *can* do: 1) Toke et al published (are publishing?) a scholarly paper on the = make-wifi-fast efforts that "looks like real academic research" (by = *actually being* academic research :-) This makes it credible to other = academicians, and throws down the gauntlet with a low latency value that = others need to improve upon. (No more academic papers that say, "We = really worked hard, and got latency down to 100 ms. Aren't you proud of = us?") Are there other papers bottled up inside team members? 2) I wonder if we would gain credibility by updating the bufferbloat web = site. I see two things that could be done. a) Change the www.bufferbloat.net home page to use a one-page = design (see, just as an example, https://bootstrapmade.com/demo/Baker/) = with sections that address our primary constituencies: Home users, = Gamers, Manufacturers, Software Developers, and Network Researchers. It = adds a bit of polish, while keeping our message simple. People can drill = down into the (existing) pages for more information.=20 b) We should make a pass through the site, organizing according = those constituencies, and removing content that is no longer relevant. c) I also grabbed the DNS name "makewififast.com" in case we = want to use it. 3) I think it's great to contact reviewers - ArsTechnica and AnandTech = were mentioned. (I did reach out to Wirecutter and ask that they = incorporate bufferbloat tests in their router recommendations. I was = disappointed by the total radio silence.) 4) Do we know people at any of the cell phone companies, or router = vendors on whom we could try one last push? As part of organizing my thoughts for this note, I also collected the = following ideas from this thread. I add my $0.02 below. Rich 1) I don't see that Ookla has much incentive to include bufferbloat = measurements in their test, since they private-label it for lots of ISPs = who (presumably) wouldn't want their CPE to be proven crappy. ("It is = difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends = upon his not understanding it!" -Upton Sinclair) 2) The gamer community seems like such a perfect target for these = improvements. But I fear that the thought leaders are so wrapped up in = the fame generated by their own clever QoS tricks that they can't = believe that fq_codel plus the make-wifi-fast fixes could possibly = address such a complicated subject. (Upton Sinclair, again.) 3) On the other hand, Comcast (whose DOCSIS modems *might* someday = support PIE or other SQM) is in a position to benefit from an increased = awareness of the phenomenon, leaving a little ray of hope. [Note - I wrote 4 & 5 below before I learned of IQrouter... I'm still = skeptical of the mainline router vendors adopting this technology = anytime soon into their stock firmware.]=20 4) I do wish that there were a way to we could stop saying, "Just update = your router firmware (trust us...)" as a solution. It would be so much = better to say, "Just buy this low-cost (or medium-cost) router that'll = make you supremely happy." 5) But I'm not hopeful that any of the COTS router vendors are going to = adopt these techniques, simply because they've been impervious to our = earlier entreaties. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try again - it'd be a = helluva competitive advantage to incorporate the 25-50 man years of = intense software development that has gone into this work. 6) It *is* a good idea to think about attracting the attention of = vendors who are hurt by bufferbloat - VoIP, video streaming folks, = gaming companies, etc. But it feels like the wrong end of the lever - a = gaming company can't fix crappy CPE, and they're stuck saying=20 7) Cell phones are another place that obviously would benefit, although, = again, it's hard to break through the notion that "It's always been like = that..." What else? Rich