[Bloat] Question about Buffer Bloat and Verizon Fios

[Bloat] Question about Buffer Bloat and Verizon Fios

[games]

I’m excited that I just got this to implement in my home.
I installed cerowrt 3.10.50-1 on my Netgear WNDR3800.

My question is, will this work with verion fios?
Reason is Verizon has a combo router/modem.
I’m not sure having if I connect PS4 > Netgear > Verizon Fios will benefit buffer bloat.
Maybe my setup is incorrect.

I have been struggling with latency while playing on my PS4 kids streaming on youtube, and wife surrfing and hoping this will help.
I do understand there might be issue with certain games net coding but hopeing to eliminate as much as posible.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Antonio Ortiz

Re: [Bloat] Question about Buffer Bloat and Verizon Fios

[Dave Taht]

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 5:05 AM,  <games@djlatino.com> wrote:
> I’m excited that I just got this to implement in my home.

Fixing one OS at a time, one router at a time, one home at a time, and
one ISP at a time is growing to be a bit tedious for me, but I am
always glad to excite others!

> I installed cerowrt 3.10.50-1 on my Netgear WNDR3800.

I note that after another year of development openwrt chaos calmer is
nearing a freeze and has all the chocolatey goodness that went into
cero.

After you get a little familiar with cero you might want to fiddle
with the newest stuff from them.

> My question is, will this work with verion fios?

It depends on your speed. Weak hardware such as the wndr3800 starts
peaking at about 55Mbits of shaping. (chaos calmer is faster, have not
measured)

So if you have the Verizon 50/50 service you cannot shape both
directions, and higher, you are out of luck - however, see below.

And you have to configure and enable the SQM subsystem to slightly
less than your configured rate. See the gui for that.

> Reason is Verizon has a combo router/modem.

They CAN be configured in a bridge mode if you desire, but you can
usually just put cero in front of it to do everything else
(shaping/wifi) and be golden.

See the intertubes for how to switch to bridging verizon gear (if you
want to). It is overly complex.

> I’m not sure having if I connect PS4 > Netgear > Verizon Fios will benefit buffer bloat.

One of our longest running deployed cerowrt + fq_codel setups is over
at ESR´s house. He has 25/25Mbit fios. On that particular modem and
particular setup we found that doing download shaping was all that was
needed. This was the latency under load behavior of FIOS on his line
on the rrul test (which tests up and download simultaneously while
doing a measurement via various forms of ping):

http://snapon.lab.bufferbloat.net/~d/esr/rrul_be_thyrsus.svg

which peaked at about 120ms of added latency under load - certainly
enough to be bothersome for your gaming experience when someone else
uses the link.

After we added 24Mbits (?) of downlink shaping and did not do anything
that I can remember on the uplink, we reduced that to about 3ms of
induced latency under this full load.

http://snapon.lab.bufferbloat.net/~d/esr/rrul_be_thyrsus-fq_codel.svg

There is a complete dataset in that url evaluating various aqm and fq
algorithms against the fios 25/25 service if anyone cares to look.

Eric is also probably now the world recordholder for cerowrt uptime -
Jim Gettys ended up rebooting his box at 273 days or so, only to find
it was actually his cablemodem wigging out. There is something magical
about cutting software releases from eric´s basement, for open source
quality, I think, and this thread was pretty funny.

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4566

> Maybe my setup is incorrect.

You are not supplying enough info. A lot of people have tended to
think this stuff is merely magic. No... you need to do a measurement,
preferably with something better than speedtest like the rrul test
suite, change two settings for uplink/downlink, and tune - and *then*
you can forget about it. This is an example of a tuning session
against a cable modem.

http://snapon.lab.bufferbloat.net/~cero2/jimreisert/results.html
>
> I have been struggling with latency while playing on my PS4 kids streaming on youtube, and wife surrfing and hoping this will help.

It certainly will.

> I do understand there might be issue with certain games net coding but hopeing to eliminate as much as posible.

Not really. You can add in some classification if you must but the
above stuff will usually take care of it.

> Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Run a good up/download test (try it with speedtest if you must, but
run a separate ping while you do),

Turn on sqm download shaping with parameters 95% or so what you get
from speedtest- re-run the test (you will lose some bandwidth but get
all your latency back, hopefully. If not, well, some fios cpe is
different from others, turn on upload shaping, measure, repeat)

There are numerous tutorials as to how to do this step on the web now,
and yet it is my sincerest hope that the big isps will merely deploy
this stuff on their gear and enable it by default. It leads to a much
less annoying internet experience. Good luck!
> Antonio Ortiz
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat



-- 
Dave Täht
We CAN make better hardware, ourselves, beat bufferbloat, and take
back control of the edge of the internet! If we work together, on
making it:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/onetswitch/onetswitch-open-source-hardware-for-networking

Re: [Bloat] Question about Buffer Bloat and Verizon Fios

[Alex Elsayed]

Dave Taht wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 5:05 AM,  <games@djlatino.com> wrote:
<snip>
>> Reason is Verizon has a combo router/modem.
> 
> They CAN be configured in a bridge mode if you desire, but you can
> usually just put cero in front of it to do everything else
> (shaping/wifi) and be golden.
> 
> See the intertubes for how to switch to bridging verizon gear (if you
> want to). It is overly complex.

<snip>

There's actually even more nuance to it than that:

FiOS (although, I thought that was owned by Frontier now? It certainly was 
when I had it up here [.wa.us]) with TV service requires MoCA (Multimedia 
over CoAxial), and thus requires the use of their (awful) combined 
router/wifi/MoCA bridge that connects to the ONT (Optical Network Terminal) 
over MoCA. In that case, you need to set it up to bridge to your own router 
behind it, &c.

However, if you are using internet/phone-only FiOS service, you can get the 
service technician to hook your router directly to the ONT via Ethernet, as 
it supports both.

Re: [Bloat] Question about Buffer Bloat and Verizon Fios

[Stephen Hemminger]

On Wed, 08 Apr 2015 09:56:48 -0700
Alex Elsayed <eternaleye@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dave Taht wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 5:05 AM,  <games@djlatino.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> >> Reason is Verizon has a combo router/modem.
> > 
> > They CAN be configured in a bridge mode if you desire, but you can
> > usually just put cero in front of it to do everything else
> > (shaping/wifi) and be golden.
> > 
> > See the intertubes for how to switch to bridging verizon gear (if you
> > want to). It is overly complex.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> There's actually even more nuance to it than that:
> 
> FiOS (although, I thought that was owned by Frontier now? It certainly was 
> when I had it up here [.wa.us]) with TV service requires MoCA (Multimedia 
> over CoAxial), and thus requires the use of their (awful) combined 
> router/wifi/MoCA bridge that connects to the ONT (Optical Network Terminal) 
> over MoCA. In that case, you need to set it up to bridge to your own router 
> behind it, &c.
> 
> However, if you are using internet/phone-only FiOS service, you can get the 
> service technician to hook your router directly to the ONT via Ethernet, as 
> it supports both.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

I am using the weird double bridge through the FioS router into a
Netgear WNDR3800 and it is stable. The issue is that the Actiontec
box does not bring everything back up after power cycle (so it is on
a UPS).

An alternative is to use a pair of MOCA modems to do MOCA to Ethernet
(and back to get to the DVR box). But it requires a bunch of changing
of MOCA frequencies; so I haven't gotten around to setting it up.

Re: [Bloat] Question about Buffer Bloat and Verizon Fios

[Antonio Ortiz]

I'm going to order them from Amazon. A pair of moca is $110.00. Thanks

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 8, 2015, at 6:18 PM, Stephen Hemminger <stephen@networkplumber.org> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 08 Apr 2015 09:56:48 -0700
> Alex Elsayed <eternaleye@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Dave Taht wrote:
>> 
>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 5:05 AM,  <games@djlatino.com> wrote:
>> <snip>
>>>> Reason is Verizon has a combo router/modem.
>>> 
>>> They CAN be configured in a bridge mode if you desire, but you can
>>> usually just put cero in front of it to do everything else
>>> (shaping/wifi) and be golden.
>>> 
>>> See the intertubes for how to switch to bridging verizon gear (if you
>>> want to). It is overly complex.
>> 
>> <snip>
>> 
>> There's actually even more nuance to it than that:
>> 
>> FiOS (although, I thought that was owned by Frontier now? It certainly was 
>> when I had it up here [.wa.us]) with TV service requires MoCA (Multimedia 
>> over CoAxial), and thus requires the use of their (awful) combined 
>> router/wifi/MoCA bridge that connects to the ONT (Optical Network Terminal) 
>> over MoCA. In that case, you need to set it up to bridge to your own router 
>> behind it, &c.
>> 
>> However, if you are using internet/phone-only FiOS service, you can get the 
>> service technician to hook your router directly to the ONT via Ethernet, as 
>> it supports both.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> 
> I am using the weird double bridge through the FioS router into a
> Netgear WNDR3800 and it is stable. The issue is that the Actiontec
> box does not bring everything back up after power cycle (so it is on
> a UPS).
> 
> An alternative is to use a pair of MOCA modems to do MOCA to Ethernet
> (and back to get to the DVR box). But it requires a bunch of changing
> of MOCA frequencies; so I haven't gotten around to setting it up.
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> 

Re: [Bloat] Question about Buffer Bloat and Verizon Fios

[Stephen Hemminger]

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I got a pair at Frys. The issue is that MOCA frequency from the ONT to the
Router is different than the frequency from the Router to the DVR.
To change the frequency requires creating a standalone network and doing
the 192.168 web access thing.

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 6:24 PM, Antonio Ortiz <games@djlatino.com> wrote:

> I'm going to order them from Amazon. A pair of moca is $110.00. Thanks
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Apr 8, 2015, at 6:18 PM, Stephen Hemminger <
> stephen@networkplumber.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 08 Apr 2015 09:56:48 -0700
> > Alex Elsayed <eternaleye@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Dave Taht wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 5:05 AM,  <games@djlatino.com> wrote:
> >> <snip>
> >>>> Reason is Verizon has a combo router/modem.
> >>>
> >>> They CAN be configured in a bridge mode if you desire, but you can
> >>> usually just put cero in front of it to do everything else
> >>> (shaping/wifi) and be golden.
> >>>
> >>> See the intertubes for how to switch to bridging verizon gear (if you
> >>> want to). It is overly complex.
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >> There's actually even more nuance to it than that:
> >>
> >> FiOS (although, I thought that was owned by Frontier now? It certainly
> was
> >> when I had it up here [.wa.us]) with TV service requires MoCA
> (Multimedia
> >> over CoAxial), and thus requires the use of their (awful) combined
> >> router/wifi/MoCA bridge that connects to the ONT (Optical Network
> Terminal)
> >> over MoCA. In that case, you need to set it up to bridge to your own
> router
> >> behind it, &c.
> >>
> >> However, if you are using internet/phone-only FiOS service, you can get
> the
> >> service technician to hook your router directly to the ONT via
> Ethernet, as
> >> it supports both.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Bloat mailing list
> >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> >
> > I am using the weird double bridge through the FioS router into a
> > Netgear WNDR3800 and it is stable. The issue is that the Actiontec
> > box does not bring everything back up after power cycle (so it is on
> > a UPS).
> >
> > An alternative is to use a pair of MOCA modems to do MOCA to Ethernet
> > (and back to get to the DVR box). But it requires a bunch of changing
> > of MOCA frequencies; so I haven't gotten around to setting it up.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bloat mailing list
> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> >
>

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Re: [Bloat] Question about Buffer Bloat and Verizon Fios

[games]

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Great to know because I thought It might be just plug and play and run
into these issues with the frequencies.

On Wed, 8 Apr 2015 22:12:21 -0700, Stephen Hemminger  wrote:

       I got a pair at Frys. The issue is that MOCA frequency from the
ONT to the Router is different than the frequency from the Router to
the DVR.To change the frequency requires creating a standalone network
and doing the 192.168 web access thing.

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 6:24 PM, Antonio Ortiz  wrote:

       I'm going to order them from Amazon. A pair of moca is $110.00. Thanks

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 8, 2015, at 6:18 PM, Stephen Hemminger  wrote:
>
> On Wed, 08 Apr 2015 09:56:48 -0700
> Alex Elsayed  wrote:
>
>> Dave Taht wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 5:05 AM,   wrote:
>>
>>>> Reason is Verizon has a combo router/modem.
>>>
>>> They CAN be configured in a bridge mode if you desire, but you can
>>> usually just put cero in front of it to do everything else
>>> (shaping/wifi) and be golden.
>>>
>>> See the intertubes for how to switch to bridging verizon gear (if you
>>> want to). It is overly complex.
>>
>>
>>
>> There's actually even more nuance to it than that:
>>
>> FiOS (although, I thought that was owned by Frontier now? It certainly was
>> when I had it up here [.wa.us]) with TV service requires MoCA (Multimedia
>> over CoAxial), and thus requires the use of their (awful) combined
>> router/wifi/MoCA bridge that connects to the ONT (Optical Network Terminal)
>> over MoCA. In that case, you need to set it up to bridge to your own router
>> behind it, &c.
>>
>> However, if you are using internet/phone-only FiOS service, you can get the
>> service technician to hook your router directly to the ONT via Ethernet, as
>> it supports both.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>
> I am using the weird double bridge through the FioS router into a
> Netgear WNDR3800 and it is stable. The issue is that the Actiontec
> box does not bring everything back up after power cycle (so it is on
> a UPS).
>
> An alternative is to use a pair of MOCA modems to do MOCA to Ethernet
> (and back to get to the DVR box). But it requires a bunch of changing
> of MOCA frequencies; so I haven't gotten around to setting it up.
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>



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